Problem with my setup

[Mattfig]

OK, guys...I have 3 RM4s all loaded up...They work great and are all linked thru my GCP/GCX...However, I've noticed on my clean RM4 (stocked with clean modules) I can overload the modules and get a very harsh clip when I strum too hard or hit a hard note...It just maxes out....I'm guessing I probably need to run a compressor for the cleans to help....All tubes have been replaced and the problem is still there....I want some significant volume outta my cleans and I really have to keep the gain and volume way down to avoid these clips...WHat the hell am I doing wrong???
If a compressor is the way I should go, does anyone have any suggestions???

Oh yeah, I should also mention that my input tube on the RM4 is a 5751 and the modules are all loaded with lower gain tubes...Oh yeah, and the modules that have a warmth or crystal setting are all set to crystal....My Loneclean has a Billy Crystal switch but it just keeps telling me I look mahvalous!

 

[byzon]

I'm having the same issue - and I've tried a compressor which didn't help much, and really shouldn't be necessary anyway! It happens with my stock Clean module and my Salvation LoneClean (in all of the settings, and it still happens on either the crystal or warm internal switch setting). I even had a KH-1 for awhile, which was supposed to resist breaking up even with EMGs. But I can overload it and all my other clean modules even with my passive Dimarzios, just by strumming a little harder.

I have tried dialing down the gain knob, the master volume, and the level knobs, to no avail. I have the tone controls set about 12 o'clock, more or less.

The only thing that helps is to turn down my guitar volume knob, but then I lose tone. Please help!

 

[byzon]

I just read in another post to try some 12AU7's instead of the 12AX7's so I'll post an update in a few days when I get the tubes swapped out...

 

[Mattfig]

I just read in another post to try some 12AU7's instead of the 12AX7's so I'll post an update in a few days when I get the tubes swapped out...

For what it's worth....I'm using a 5751 tube in the RM4 input....And V1 and V2 of my Loneclean and Twinface as well as V1 of my two Figmods modules Clean and Top Boost...So if lowering tube strength is an issue...Switching tubes helps but does not fix it....

 

[Julia]

Are you running an effects unit in the loop by any chance?

It essentially is where the compressor is put. Not that it "shouldn't be needed". You're dealing with the nature of clean. It needs to be in the effects loop. You won't notice the problem without an effects unit because power tubes can handle the peaks without much problem because tubes soft clip.

Here's the problem. Your gain modules are already compressed signalwise. Your clean modules are not. This means you have a lot of sensitivity in dynamics. So if you dig in hard clean you will cause hard clipping in an effects unit. Why? Because the amplitude on that dig in is higher and on the initial attack louder than the dirt modules -- even though the dirty modules sound three times louder -- remember this is due to the nature of compression in the dirty modules.

So you have three choices. 1) Live with it being about 1/3 the volume level without clipping. or 2) Remove any effects in the effects loop; or 3) do what I did and stick a rackmount compressor/limiter/noise gate in the effects loop.

I'd recommend the dbx 166xl. It's got a great limiter that rounds the wave form instead of chopping it, has a noise gate, and has a nice compressor section with an "over easy" switch. It's two channels so you can use one side for vocals as well. It's not your traditional pedal compressor. It's a studio quality compressor. And it comes with a detailed instruction manual on how to use it -- and yes, leave it on when your run your dirt modules. It will just act as a noise gate, or only slightly compress them. It is the most transparent compressor I've ever used.

This allows me to turn the level up on the KH1 to 2:00, and with the limiter on it will no longer cause clipping on my effects unit. I run the dirt modules with the levels at 11:00. It does not color the tone. It's $259. If that's too much, the dbx 266xl does pretty much the same thing for less money but I think it is missing one or two features that I found useful.

 

[Mattfig]

Are you running an effects unit in the loop by any chance?

It essentially is where the compressor is put. Not that it "shouldn't be needed". You're dealing with the nature of clean. It needs to be in the effects loop. You won't notice the problem without an effects unit because power tubes can handle the peaks without much problem because tubes soft clip.

Here's the problem. Your gain modules are already compressed signalwise. Your clean modules are not. This means you have a lot of sensitivity in dynamics. So if you dig in hard clean you will cause hard clipping in an effects unit. Why? Because the amplitude on that dig in is higher and on the initial attack louder than the dirt modules -- even though the dirty modules sound three times louder -- remember this is due to the nature of compression in the dirty modules.

So you have three choices. 1) Live with it being about 1/3 the volume level without clipping. or 2) Remove any effects in the effects loop; or 3) do what I did and stick a rackmount compressor/limiter/noise gate in the effects loop.

I'd recommend the dbx 166xl. It's got a great limiter that rounds the wave form instead of chopping it, has a noise gate, and has a nice compressor section with an "over easy" switch. It's two channels so you can use one side for vocals as well. It's not your traditional pedal compressor. It's a studio quality compressor. And it comes with a detailed instruction manual on how to use it -- and yes, leave it on when your run your dirt modules. It will just act as a noise gate, or only slightly compress them. It is the most transparent compressor I've ever used.

This allows me to turn the level up on the KH1 to 2:00, and with the limiter on it will no longer cause clipping on my effects unit. I run the dirt modules with the levels at 11:00. It does not color the tone. It's $259. If that's too much, the dbx 266xl does pretty much the same thing for less money but I think it is missing one or two features that I found useful.

Thanks Julia...Great advice as always...I'm actually running my effects inline right now but suspect the same problem...I'm gonna stick a compressor in the loop and see how that treats me....Which loop do you use for your 166xl?

 

[Julia]

Thanks Julia...Great advice as always...I'm actually running my effects inline right now but suspect the same problem...I'm gonna stick a compressor in the loop and see how that treats me....Which loop do you use for your 166xl?

My chain is like this with my Lynch Box:

Guitar > (fuzz & OD & EQ (sometimes on)) > amp input > Serial Loop Send > dbx 166xl > Lexicon MX300 > 31 band EQ > Serial Loop Return > Speakers.

I have my effects processor set up to do the wet/dry signal mixing internally so there is no need to use a parallel loop. The unit itself has a self contained parallel loop.

In any event you'd put the compressor in the serial loop because you want it affecting the entire signal, especially with the noise gate and limiter. Here's my settings with it:

* Gate: Threshold 10:00; Release 3:00 (I don't want it to cut off notes)
* Compressor: Over Easy button on; Ratio Noon; Release 3:00; Output -1 (just before noon); Limiter +1.

I run the output on the KH1 @ 2:30, Gain @ 10:00. Tone knobs all at 9:30. Brite off, and it reminds me of my Fender amp's clean channel that I cannot get to break up no matter how hard I bang on it.

 

[bansheeburner]

I also ran into this problem with mine, but with the g major 2 I was able to turn down the input volume to the effects unit and mess with the output volume to get it to sound right... I also run my cleans gain at about 10:00 and volume around 1:00 with a 7025 in v1 and 12ax7 in v2.

 

[byzon]

I'm willing to try the compressor in the effects loop, but I still say it should not be necessary. I appreciate and respect your advice about the compressor, Julia, but I guess my expectations are a bit different. In my experience, the nature of clean is that there should be ample headroom to stay sparkling clean until gain is around 60 or 70 percent, then you should begin to hear some breakup. This is based upon my own experience with the various Fender amps that these modules are based on.

Randall's description of the Clean module on the website says: "Stays clean even at high volumes." This does not sound like I should need a compressor to tame the peaks with gain at only 10 o'clock!

The description for the KH-1 says: "A great clean tone for any style, but tailored for rock and metal because it stays clean at higher volumes even with active pickups." Again, even with my passive pickups, this is not true.

I'm as much of a die-hard fan of the MTS series as you'll ever meet, I constantly sing the praises of these amps, but these descriptions aren't even close, in my opinion. It is essentially false advertising.

BTW, I have not been using any effects in the loop.

 

[Mattfig]

I agree...This **** is very frustrating...I sold a bunch of amps to get my full MTS thing going...One of them was a Fender Hot Rod Deville...It had a great clean that couldn't be overloaded - even with effects...Is there a mod to fix this issue?

 

[okstrat]

few ideas...

1) take one of the RM4s out of your GCX setup and see if the problem still exists. My GCX has a buffer - this may be overdriving your RM4's input.

2) Make sure your clean modules have the updated R1-R3 values. You might even experiment with making them a little smaller too...

3) replace 12ax7's in your clean modules with 12au7s, 5751s or even a 12dw7.

Pete

 

[Mattfig]

Thanks Pete...Got the lower gain 5751s in everywhere...I solved the problem temporarily by inserting a DI box attenuating the input of the RM4 20 db....Seems to work pretty well...And a cheap fix!

 

[byzon]

As I mentioned, here is my update after pulling the 12AX7's from my stock Clean module and replacing them with 12AU7's.

The good: As far as I can tell, it helps with the clipping though it doesn't eliminate it. It changes the character of it a little bit, not as harsh, but it is still there. I am able to get the gain knob up to 12 o'clock before it kicks in.

The bad: The overall character of the module seems to have lost a lot of the attack or "snap" that I liked about it before. It's just kind of lifeless now. Especially lacking in bass.

Probably going back to the 12AX7's but first I'll do some tinkering over the next few days. I am also going to write Randall Amp support to see what they say. Otherwise, I may bring the whole head in to Alex Aguiilar and see if he can help me with this issue. Seems a shame, though, it's brand new.