Tonegrinder 12AX7 replacement

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Daryl

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Anybody heard of the Tonegrinder 12AX7 preamp tube replacements by Wattgrinder engineering? I saw a demo from that Premier Guitar Magazine sent to my e-mail. It is a cool idea. The concept is a tube like device that is designed to function in the place of a 12AX7 tube, but without the inherent disadvantages of vacuum tube technology. Check it out:
http://www.wattgrinder.com/TGDescription.htm
The video clips are pretty interesting. Especially since they are touted to last the lifetime of your rig! They are pretty spendy though.
Thoughts?....
 
After going all this way to stay with a full tube rig, the very last thing I'm gonna do is use "tubes" like that....My Tung Sols are cheap enough to replace every couple years....Although the concept is interesting and I'm curious to see if this catches on...
 
Preamp tubes are pretty darn reliable and long lasting compared to power tubes. I would like to see some power tubes that never burned out. That would be something. Otherwise the cost of the Tonegrinders is way too much for a preamp tube. I think the standard ones are $139 street!!! That could be literally years worth of preamp tube swaps!! I think it is cheaper and more fun to experiment with different tubes. I am way too stinking curious though. Maybe someone has tried them and will post something.
 
Not interested in turning any of my tube amps into solid state amps, especially at that price.

$150.00 would buy you preamp tubes for the life of most amp.
 
Hey Y'all,
I just got an e-mail back from the President of Wattgrinder. He says:

WattGrinder (info) to me
show details 1:43 PM (24 minutes ago)
Hi Daryl,

Thank you for your interest in the ToneGrinder products.

We have reduced the price on all ToneGrinder products since the NAMM '09 introduction. Standard models from either the Expanded Output Series (EOS) or the X100 Series are now $89.00 each.
We are selling the products from the factory. If you would like to purchase you can call (707) 778-1155 or email and we can help you with your order.
I recommend starting with 1 or 2 ToneGrinders and experiment in your amp. I believe a mix of ToneGrinders and vacuum tubes will give you the best outcome.
Let me know if I can help you further. If you like, call in and we can discuss your amp(s) and what you are looking for and I will be happy to help you choose ToneGrinder products that best fits.

Regards,

Darryl
 
Daryl said:
Hey Y'all,
I just got an e-mail back from the President of Wattgrinder. He says:

WattGrinder (info) to me
show details 1:43 PM (24 minutes ago)
Hi Daryl,

Thank you for your interest in the ToneGrinder products.

We have reduced the price on all ToneGrinder products since the NAMM '09 introduction. Standard models from either the Expanded Output Series (EOS) or the X100 Series are now $89.00 each.
We are selling the products from the factory. If you would like to purchase you can call (707) 778-1155 or email and we can help you with your order.
I recommend starting with 1 or 2 ToneGrinders and experiment in your amp. I believe a mix of ToneGrinders and vacuum tubes will give you the best outcome.
Let me know if I can help you further. If you like, call in and we can discuss your amp(s) and what you are looking for and I will be happy to help you choose ToneGrinder products that best fits.

Regards,

Darryl

hey Daryl,

Is that email from your other brother Darryl?

0.jpg


If you're too young to understand, it's an old guy joke...:)
 
Daryl said:
...We have reduced the price on all ToneGrinder products since...

Translation: "sales of solid-state tubes not go'n so good"

oh well... I would really like to hear 'em.. I'd even buy a couple if they were like $15.00... stick 'em in the effects loop buffer and all
 
eedude said:
Daryl said:
...We have reduced the price on all ToneGrinder products since...

Translation: "sales of solid-state tubes not go'n so good"

oh well... I would really like to hear 'em.. I'd even buy a couple if they were like $15.00... stick 'em in the effects loop buffer and all

Actually the translation is: "we overestimated what people would pay for them, so we'll drop the price down a bit to see if it sparks any interest. If that doesn't work we'll actually price them reasonably and we'll still make a profit."

See right now they're priced higher than NOS tubes.

If they were smart they'd give a few sets away to some major companies to evaluate and get them put in new amps.
 
Mattfig said:
hey Daryl,

Is that email from your other brother Darryl?


If you're too young to understand, it's an old guy joke...:)
OMG...Do you know how many times I have heard that joke in my life?....
I haven't heard a newhart show reference is a while though...Nice...
Maybe my other "evil" brother...I would never do you guys like this guy is doing with the crazy prices these things.
I think that Wattgrinder is really tying to screw people here and it really gets me thinking that even if they come down in price, I still won't buy them. What the hell is that greedy ****. We are all musicians in the holy brotherhood. Right?
Too dramatic? Gotcha...
How much could it really be costing him to manufacture a transistor that fits a tube socket? It pisses me off because I like new technology and it sets technology back when it is cost prohibitive. I mean these things may be awesome enough to make you goo your pants, but if the price point is not appealing then there is going to be a tepid response and may die out because of lack of demand. He needs to be thinking about his marketing strategy and that it is better to have less profit per unit type sales instead of high profit with hardly any sales. It's simple economics. If they were maybe $20 tops, I would try one in my effects loop and experiment with different position in my modules. He tries to justify the cost by stating that compared to expensive NOS tubes these are about the same cost and last longer. How can he come out with a brand new product, compare it to the time tested leaders, and expect people to go for that?
DogShit.jpg


DO you guys smell something funky?
 
Daryl said:
How much could it really be costing him to manufacture a transistor that fits a tube socket? It pisses me off because I like new technology and it sets technology back when it is cost prohibitive. I mean these things may be awesome enough to make you goo your pants, but if the price point is not appealing then there is going to be a tepid response and may die out because of lack of demand.
It's all about economies of scale. If you're a small business trying to develop, manufacture and introduce a new product onto the market, there are a huge number upfront and ongoing costs that have to be paid for. It is also a risky endeavour as you're never 100% sure how well the market will accept your product - at any price. Any miscalculations and you may as well donate your investment money to charity instead of trying to build a business.

If this guy is predicting that his sales are only ever going to be so high, he can calculate a minimum cost to him, below which he loses money. He can try to amortise the upfront costs over a few years to keep the per unit loading down, but it still comes down to expected volume.

Let's assume each "tube" costs $20 in parts. If he expects to sell, say 1000 units a year, and he needs to pay for his time, upfront engineering (maybe a few months of R&D timewise, a $10,000 in upfront costs for PCB, injection molding tooling and test equipment, time for per unit testing (assuming thorough Q/A testing), business and legal expenses, possible CE/UL approvals, advertising costs, time to create a dealer network, packaging, etc. And if you add all that up, you'll probably find the per unit cost (with upfronts amortised over the first 2 years) would come to something like $40 per unit. Remember, 1000 units isn't really that big a quantity for something small like this.

Now we have to talk about at least trying to make a profit and not underselling any dealer network that you're working with. The dealers won't be happy if you undercut them on your website for cost+10% as they'll be looking at making at least 20% themselves from the sale. When you sell to the dealers you'll probably also want to make at least 20%. That means you have to sell them for at least $60 before anyone will care enough to help you sell them. That sets $60 as the minimum reasonable cost to the end user. Double that for RRP and let the street price sit around $90 and everyone in the dealer chain happy.

So, no this is not some guy trying to blindly rip off the masses. If he does some more market research and finds a way to sell higher volumes, then the cost can be reduced - again it all comes down to economy of scale.

Daryl said:
He needs to be thinking about his marketing strategy and that it is better to have less profit per unit type sales instead of high profit with hardly any sales. It's simple economics. If they were maybe $20 tops, I would try one in my effects loop and experiment with different position in my modules.
Yes, he probably does need to be thinking about better marketing. But, it's still better to sell 1000 units with a $50 profit margin than have 100000 sit in stock and end up being forced to sell them at a net loss.
Daryl said:
DO you guys smell something funky?
No. But I can see how you could come to that conclusion if you weren't aware of how much pain and 'hidden' costs are involved in the development/manufacture/sales process.
 
You sound like a salesman and not a cost estimator. LOL
Don't you think marketability vs. cost is the first consideration before going into production. If you have done proper market analysis then you know whether or not you can actually produce a product at a price point that is going to be acceptable given market conditions. If you have a product that is at a price point that is unrealistic considering the available, proven items that are already on the market, then you have a lemon. To compare an item that is unproven in the marketplace to an item that is industry standard premium, is not realistic. Your assessment of cost is also unrealistic. Do you know how much a transistor costs? What if these units could be produced for $3.00? Which is more realistic if you think about the price of components at volume. If he does not get contract pricing, then that is his fault. In light of your figures, yes maybe it does sound reasonable that they cost so much. However, it is far more realistic that they cost a lot less to produce and that the majority of the R and D was equally cost effective. Excessive amortization is not a good way to get your price point either. It is a rookie move. You have to eat certain costs to get the product to the point where you actually have a viable product otherwise you risk failure to meet an effective price point. Amortizing parts, labor, marketing, and distribution are the only costs that you need to consider. The other costs can be recuperated by the longer term success of the marketing strategy and consistent sales. So if the price doesn't move the product the bottom falls out. Merchandise is only worth what someone will pay for it. Seriously, I get what you are driving at, but I just don't think that this item will ever move at this price point and at the volume needed to make it a viable product to market. I think vendors will see it the same way. It's a marketing flop and it is largely because of the price point.
monopoly_man_bankrupt.gif
 
Daryl said:
You sound like a salesman and not a cost estimator. LOL
Don't you think marketability vs. cost is the first consideration before going into production. If you have done proper market analysis then you know whether or not you can actually produce a product at a price point that is going to be acceptable given market conditions. If you have a product that is at a price point that is unrealistic considering the available, proven items that are already on the market, then you have a lemon. To compare an item that is unproven in the marketplace to an item that is industry standard premium, is not realistic. Your assessment of cost is also unrealistic. Do you know how much a transistor costs? What if these units could be produced for $3.00? Which is more realistic if you think about the price of components at volume. If he does not get contract pricing, then that is his fault. In light of your figures, yes maybe it does sound reasonable that they cost so much. However, it is far more realistic that they cost a lot less to produce and that the majority of the R and D was equally cost effective. Excessive amortization is not a good way to get your price point either. It is a rookie move. You have to eat certain costs to get the product to the point where you actually have a viable product otherwise you risk failure to meet an effective price point. Amortizing parts, labor, marketing, and distribution are the only costs that you need to consider. The other costs can be recuperated by the longer term success of the marketing strategy and consistent sales. So if the price doesn't move the product the bottom falls out. Merchandise is only worth what someone will pay for it. Seriously, I get what you are driving at, but I just don't think that this item will ever move at this price point and at the volume needed to make it a viable product to market. I think vendors will see it the same way. It's a marketing flop and it is largely because of the price point.
No need to worry. If the product isn't selling, then price will keep dropping until they have run out their existing stock. If the price is forced to come down too far, they will sell their remaining stock at a loss, and shut down the operation. As an engineering consultant I've see this happen far too many times, in fact it is the norm when dealing with start up product companies. Most try to do some sort of market research, but small errors (or wrong assumptions) can cost a lot of money, and most of these guys don't have a lot of seed capital to begin with.

I have no idea what is inside this product, but it's quite likely that it's more complicated than you seem to think. I can guarantee from seeing so many companies do the same, that the retail price is generally about 4 times the manufactured price. If they were making them for $5 to $10 as you imply, then I'd guess that they'd be quite happy to retail them for around $20.
 
I agree with the price point problem + no proof of concept or major amp endorsements....Sounds like a venture capital project to me
 
This is the problem. Marketing. This could be a very good product. It's just been produced on a small scale where it isn't cost effective.... yet. I remember a company was also trying to get the old UK Mullard plant up and running but couldn't because all the equipment was specially made, the original stuff being now in Russia. The price point was prohibitive.

But they need to sell an amp company on putting them in their amps. However, no matter how good they sound, no matter how reliable they are, musicians are a funny bunch. The things aren't made of glass. Ergo = bad & sterile tone.
 
The sample video clips sound pretty good. I am not totally convinced that they necessarily sound better than a good set of premium tubes. I mean for the price of these solid-state devices, I could buy a variety of really nice tubes and try out different configurations.
I am not 100% about the function of these "tubes". I hope eedude chimes in. He is the man when it comes to electronics. I am guessing it is some kind of transistor based device. Maybe MOSFET or JFET transistors. It has to simulate the function of a dual triode cathode circuit. I am unfamiliar with the specifics, but it really shouldn't be that complicated. Electronics are not magic just effective harnessing of principles and properties of electricity. Where are you eedude? shout out, bro... :D
 
Julia said:
This is the problem. Marketing. This could be a very good product. It's just been produced on a small scale where it isn't cost effective.... yet.

This tends to make sense, not to mention new technology/products always seems to be more expensive at 1st, then overtime will decrease in cost to a point where it stabilizes. Anybody remember when Sony rolled out CDs back in the 80s? How about Flash cards. These days you can pick up a 4GB SD card for what the price of a 512MB SD card was 4-5 years ago.

Julia said:
But they need to sell an amp company on putting them in their amps. However, no matter how good they sound, no matter how reliable they are, musicians are a funny bunch. The things aren't made of glass. Ergo = bad & sterile tone.

I agree on both points. 1st you will have the tone purists who will think it is crap & sterile no matter what. If they can get a couple mainstream amp companies to put them in a model or 2 that will give the masses a chance to try them out ourselves, it will give the product a chance.

With all that being said, Preamp tubes are relatively inexpensive & last a long long time, so at the current price point or even over $50, I would not be tempted. Now if they developed a Power tube replacement that sounded like EL34s 6L6s, KT88s, etc at the current price point, I would be tempted.
 
Hamner1 said:
even over $50, I would not be tempted. Now if they developed a Power tube replacement that sounded like EL34s 6L6s, KT88s, etc at the current price point, I would be tempted.
The president of Wattgrinder says that they are working on some power tube designs, but they are not out yet. Power tubes that last forever would be very sweet. If they were really good and reasonably priced, I would be into that.
 
Hamner1 said:
Julia said:
This is the problem. Marketing. This could be a very good product. It's just been produced on a small scale where it isn't cost effective.... yet.

This tends to make sense, not to mention new technology/products always seems to be more expensive at 1st, then overtime will decrease in cost to a point where it stabilizes. Anybody remember when Sony rolled out CDs back in the 80s? How about Flash cards. These days you can pick up a 4GB SD card for what the price of a 512MB SD card was 4-5 years ago.

And you can buy an entire computer today, and a quad core one at that for what a 5 MB hard drive cost back in 1985.

With all that being said, Preamp tubes are relatively inexpensive & last a long long time, so at the current price point or even over $50, I would not be tempted. Now if they developed a Power tube replacement that sounded like EL34s 6L6s, KT88s, etc at the current price point, I would be tempted.

This I would jump on. The luck I've had with tubes in the past? No problem. You can keep the glass for the power tubes.
 
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