Tonegrinder 12AX7 replacement

[eedude]

Yeah, well the whole thing is bass acwards, you (I) don?t drop $2k on a boutique tube amp to stick $100 solid-state ?tubes? in it. That is the worst of both worlds: heavy expensive amp full of transistors. What?s the point? In my 25 years of using tube amps I have had exactly one 12ax7 flat out fail on me. Power tubes different story, but hey there are already SS power amps folks and some good ones too, so WTF do you want to lug around the weight of an output transformer if you stick friggen transistors in the output stage?

Yeah, I suspect it?s a fet based design?all cool and every thing.. IMHFO he should design his own amp or license the technology... why retro it

With regard to price of new technology decreasing over time. I suspect that that does not apply here.. there is no new ?technology? to get cheaper. Discrete transistors are already a mature technology which are already cheap, it?s not like he built the flux-capacitor and the next generation one is going to be less expensive due to processes improvements. If he want?s to make it cheaper he needs to do volume.

 

[m0jo]

If they are FET transistors I'm very interested in how they are handling the power coming into the tube base.. that's not exactly a match or anything.

I think one of the other marketing problems with this is that they are not transparent about what is in there.
Thus people are going to assume it's "just transistors" even though there might be a whole lot more going on in there..
Or maybe that is exactly the reason why they don't tell us

 

[eedude]

If they are FET transistors I'm very interested in how they are handling the power coming into the tube base..

[The following is just a general discussion, I'm not suggesting I know exactly what's in there].

yeah, it's not as much power as you may first think. A 12AX7 has ~2mA flowing through it. A transistor can use about the same. Lets say they bias it such that there is 200V across the transistor.
P= I*V
P= 0.002A*200V = 0.4W, or 400mW
That's not much at all. And for a part example here is a Fairchild mosfet, 400V capable...
www.fairchildsemi.com/pf/FD/FDT3N40.html

...Thus people are going to assume it's "just transistors" even though there might be a whole lot more going on in there..Or maybe that is exactly the reason why they don't tell us

Well, there really isn't anything else... In all my years there are only two things generally available that amplify: tubes and transistors. Now there are all sorts of them... and they can be made into bigger units, like op-amps.. but that still just transistors.

 

[m0jo]

If they are FET transistors I'm very interested in how they are handling the power coming into the tube base..

[The following is just a general discussion, I'm not suggesting I know exactly what's in there].

yeah, it's not as much power as you may first think. A 12AX7 has ~2mA flowing through it. A transistor can use about the same. Lets say they bias it such that there is 200V across the transistor.
P= I*V
P= 0.002A*200V = 0.4W, or 400mW
That's not much at all. And for a part example here is a Fairchild mosfet, 400V capable...
www.fairchildsemi.com/pf/FD/FDT3N40.html

...Thus people are going to assume it's "just transistors" even though there might be a whole lot more going on in there..Or maybe that is exactly the reason why they don't tell us

Well, there really isn't anything else... In all my years there are only two things generally available that amplify: tubes and transistors. Now there are all sorts of them... and they can be made into bigger units, like op-amps.. but that still just transistors.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm only used to transistors that burn out when you put more than 5 volts through them, but of course there are huge ones *slap on forehead*

Either way, you never know, maybe they developed the "next step" from tube > transistors > ??
But really.. no they didn't otherwise they'd proudly show what the technology is, since they don't it'll just be some transickstors in there.

Reading through their marketing muck, they talk a lot about "enhanced dymanic range"..
I wonder if they realise that one of the things people like about tube amps is that they offer some compression?

Ah well, I guess we can talk about this for ages, but it's futile until someone bites the bullet and buys one!

 

[Daryl]

I hear you Mojo. Until someone bites the bullet and tries them, we will never know. Especially if the prices remain such a prohibitive factor.
I got another e-mail from Wattgrinder that offers a lower price than the $139 street that is spoken of in the Youtube clips:
Hi Daryl,
Thank you for your interest in the ToneGrinder products.

We have reduced the price on all ToneGrinder products since the NAMM '09 introduction. Standard models from either the Expanded Output Series (EOS) or the X100 Series are now $89.00 each.

We are selling the products from the factory. If you would like to purchase you can call (707) 778-1155 or email and we can help you with your order.

I recommend starting with 1 or 2 ToneGrinders and experiment in your amp. I believe a mix of ToneGrinders and vacuum tubes will give you the best outcome.

Let me know if I can help you further. If you like, call in and we can discuss your amp(s) and what you are looking for and I will be happy to help you choose ToneGrinder products that best fits.

Regards,

Darryl

He mentions that a mix of tubes and Tonegrinders will give me the best outcome. Hmmm... My skepticism is growing.

 

[audiomidijace]

I heard these at the LA Amp Show. I was intrigued, so I listened to what the guy had to say. Then he gave me the demo. He had a Fender Silver face Deluxe amp I think. He plugged in and played the channel with regular preamp tubes. It sounded fantastic. Then he switched to the channel that had his products in them and it just sounded like ***! I was polite, let him finish the demo, shook his hand and thanked him for his time.

 

[eedude]

... and it just sounded like ***!

maybe that's why he call's them tone grinders, they grind away your tone.

 

[m0jo]

... and it just sounded like ***!

maybe that's why he call's them tone grinders, they grind away your tone.

Hahaha good one!

So it's what everybody suspected.
How would you describe the tone audiomidijace?
Did it screw up the mostly the EQ or just everything as a whole?

 

[Mattfig]

Sorry but these just seem absolutely stupid...I don't know how anyone invest in or back a company like this...If they're at trade shows and such, they're trying to break into the market...Really seems like an idea to fish for suckers...Real tube amps need real tubes...To me the older the tube, the better - meaning NOS, not burned out tubes... Why anyone would drop such cash into these without being bamboozled or too inexperienced to know better?

 

[m0jo]

Sorry but these just seem absolutely stupid...I don't know how anyone invest in or back a company like this...If they're at trade shows and such, they're trying to break into the market...Really seems like an idea to fish for suckers...Real tube amps need real tubes...To me the older the tube, the better - meaning NOS, not burned out tubes... Why anyone would drop such cash into these without being bamboozled or too inexperienced to know better?

Someone on an insane gear run?? *cough*you*cough* :lol:

I don't know man, the idea has seemed completely ridiculous from the start.
Yes, one day there's going to be something that can replace tubes, I have no doubt about that... but rehashing existing techniques of which we know they're not good enough is just plain stupid.

Like you said, probably fishing for suckers..

 

[Mattfig]

Sorry but these just seem absolutely stupid...I don't know how anyone invest in or back a company like this...If they're at trade shows and such, they're trying to break into the market...Really seems like an idea to fish for suckers...Real tube amps need real tubes...To me the older the tube, the better - meaning NOS, not burned out tubes... Why anyone would drop such cash into these without being bamboozled or too inexperienced to know better?

Someone on an insane gear run?? *cough*you*cough* :lol:

I don't know man, the idea has seemed completely ridiculous from the start.
Yes, one day there's going to be something that can replace tubes, I have no doubt about that... but rehashing existing techniques of which we know they're not good enough is just plain stupid.

Like you said, probably fishing for suckers..

I've been on an insane gear run for months! My rig is really packed but awesome...The new shootout will show off some new toys!

As for the tonesucker tubes...I can just hear EVERY Guitar Center salesman pitching this **** to every zit faced 16 year old buying a Spider Valve...

 

[m0jo]

Sorry but these just seem absolutely stupid...I don't know how anyone invest in or back a company like this...If they're at trade shows and such, they're trying to break into the market...Really seems like an idea to fish for suckers...Real tube amps need real tubes...To me the older the tube, the better - meaning NOS, not burned out tubes... Why anyone would drop such cash into these without being bamboozled or too inexperienced to know better?

Someone on an insane gear run?? *cough*you*cough* :lol:

I don't know man, the idea has seemed completely ridiculous from the start.
Yes, one day there's going to be something that can replace tubes, I have no doubt about that... but rehashing existing techniques of which we know they're not good enough is just plain stupid.

Like you said, probably fishing for suckers..

I've been on an insane gear run for months! My rig is really packed but awesome...The new shootout will show off some new toys!

As for the tonesucker tubes...I can just hear EVERY Guitar Center salesman pitching this s*&t to every zit faced 16 year old buying a Spider Valve...

Yup, ah well. They don't hear that well yet anyway, maybe it can be their first step in realising that tubes actually do sound better

 

[Daryl]

LOL :lol:
I knew you guys would do a great job of ripping these "transistors" a new *******. "Tone Grinder" what the hell is that name supposed to conjure up anyway? Maybe the grinding of teeth when you realize that you forked over $90 for these pieces of junk. And they supposedly last forever, so you get to suffer buyers remorse for years to come.
Seriously, shouldn't we be financially supporting the real tube market? If we play tube amps should we not create a demand for really great tubes? If we don't supply the demand for premium quality, reasonably priced, and readily available tubes, then we are really shooting ourselves in the foot, so to speak. The variety of manufacturers and configurations is part of what drives GAS and keeps us searching for that elusive tube/rig combination that just gets it done better than anything else. While a daunting task to find that perfect configuration, it is part of the experience and it is fun to try new things. If you guys keep one poor zit faced kid from spending all his allowance on packing his Spidervalve with Tonegrinders, then you have done a service to the musical community.
Guitar Johnny thanks you...

 

[m0jo]

LOL :lol:
I knew you guys would do a great job of ripping these "transistors" a new *******. "Tone Grinder" what the hell is that name supposed to conjure up anyway? Maybe the grinding of teeth when you realize that you forked over $90 for these pieces of junk. And they supposedly last forever, so you get to suffer buyers remorse for years to come.
Seriously, shouldn't we be financially supporting the real tube market? If we play tube amps should we not create a demand for really great tubes? If we don't supply the demand for premium quality, reasonably priced, and readily available tubes, then we are really shooting ourselves in the foot, so to speak. The variety of manufacturers and configurations is part of what drives GAS and keeps us searching for that elusive tube/rig combination that just gets it done better than anything else. While a daunting task to find that perfect configuration, it is part of the experience and it is fun to try new things. If you guys keep one poor zit faced kid from spending all his allowance on packing his Spidervalve with Tonegrinders, then you have done a service to the musical community.
Guitar Johnny thanks you...

Guitar Johnny plays a **** PRS Custom 22/24? :shock:
I don't think he needs our help!

 

[Daryl]

LOL :lol:
I knew you guys would do a great job of ripping these "transistors" a new *******. "Tone Grinder" what the hell is that name supposed to conjure up anyway? Maybe the grinding of teeth when you realize that you forked over $90 for these pieces of junk. And they supposedly last forever, so you get to suffer buyers remorse for years to come.
Seriously, shouldn't we be financially supporting the real tube market? If we play tube amps should we not create a demand for really great tubes? If we don't supply the demand for premium quality, reasonably priced, and readily available tubes, then we are really shooting ourselves in the foot, so to speak. The variety of manufacturers and configurations is part of what drives GAS and keeps us searching for that elusive tube/rig combination that just gets it done better than anything else. While a daunting task to find that perfect configuration, it is part of the experience and it is fun to try new things. If you guys keep one poor zit faced kid from spending all his allowance on packing his Spidervalve with Tonegrinders, then you have done a service to the musical community.
Guitar Johnny thanks you...

Guitar Johnny plays a **** PRS Custom 22/24? :shock:
I don't think he needs our help!

I think that is a Dean. If you look at the headstock closely it has the wings and the deep cutout.
Guitar Johnny wishes that Santa would bring him a PRS custom 22 or 24 for Christmas this year.

 

[m0jo]

LOL :lol:
I knew you guys would do a great job of ripping these "transistors" a new *******. "Tone Grinder" what the hell is that name supposed to conjure up anyway? Maybe the grinding of teeth when you realize that you forked over $90 for these pieces of junk. And they supposedly last forever, so you get to suffer buyers remorse for years to come.
Seriously, shouldn't we be financially supporting the real tube market? If we play tube amps should we not create a demand for really great tubes? If we don't supply the demand for premium quality, reasonably priced, and readily available tubes, then we are really shooting ourselves in the foot, so to speak. The variety of manufacturers and configurations is part of what drives GAS and keeps us searching for that elusive tube/rig combination that just gets it done better than anything else. While a daunting task to find that perfect configuration, it is part of the experience and it is fun to try new things. If you guys keep one poor zit faced kid from spending all his allowance on packing his Spidervalve with Tonegrinders, then you have done a service to the musical community.
Guitar Johnny thanks you...

Guitar Johnny plays a **** PRS Custom 22/24? :shock:
I don't think he needs our help!

I think that is a Dean. If you look at the headstock closely it has the wings and the deep cutout.
Guitar Johnny wishes that Santa would bring him a PRS custom 22 or 24 for Christmas this year.

Oh ****, yes haha, the top horn of the body threw me off.
Still not a cheap guitarr though

His sunglasses are creeping be out btw :?

 

[Daryl]

This is from the Wattgrinder Engineering website:
Q: What is the price comparison of the ToneGrinder
12AX7 to a vacuum tube?
A: The retail price of U.S. made ToneGrinder 12AX7
products is more than the Chinese or Russian made
vacuum tubes. However, in most cases, the retail price
of ToneGrinder 12AX7 products is less than NOS
products which typically range from $150 to $300.
NOS products are risky for tone and quality; they
will eventually fail.
It pisses me off that there is a comparison made between the ToneGrinders and NOS tubes. I just feel that it is a bit deceptive and makes an inference that the product is on this level of quality. For starters the life of a preamp tube is not really that much of an issue. They last a really long time and sound better after they have been burned in a bit. Tonegrinders aren't guaranteed to last forever either.
Also from the website:
Q: How long do ToneGrinders last?
A: ToneGrinders could last the lifetime of your equipment.
If I put a new set of preamp tubes in my amp, they "COULD" technically last the lifetime of my equipment. SO...It's kind of a half assed guarantee.
When the company goes under and they liquidate the stock, I might buy some of these, but I'm not going to be the first to jump on these gimmicky, overpriced, tube killers.

 

[m0jo]

This is from the Wattgrinder Engineering website:
Q: What is the price comparison of the ToneGrinder
12AX7 to a vacuum tube?
A: The retail price of U.S. made ToneGrinder 12AX7
products is more than the Chinese or Russian made
vacuum tubes. However, in most cases, the retail price
of ToneGrinder 12AX7 products is less than NOS
products which typically range from $150 to $300.
NOS products are risky for tone and quality; they
will eventually fail.
It pisses me off that there is a comparison made between the ToneGrinders and NOS tubes. I just feel that it is a bit deceptive and makes an inference that the product is on this level of quality. For starters the life of a preamp tube is not really that much of an issue. They last a really long time and sound better after they have been burned in a bit. Tonegrinders aren't guaranteed to last forever either.
Also from the website:
Q: How long do ToneGrinders last?
A: ToneGrinders could last the lifetime of your equipment.
If I put a new set of preamp tubes in my amp, they "COULD" technically last the lifetime of my equipment. SO...It's kind of a half assed guarantee.
When the company goes under and they liquidate the stock, I might buy some of these, but I'm not going to be the first to jump on these gimmicky, overpriced, tube killers.

Don't wind yourself up this is just the usual marketing garbage.
I know, because I'm hired to write it sometimes haha

The fact is though, a lot of people think that NOS tubes are just a gimmick and are fragile.
That is of course BS.
I have some old Ultron's, sound onbelievably open and organic and they are lasting longer than some modern tubes.
NOS tubes are (preferrably) from the golden era of tubes, when they were all there was ... it's logical that they were better then than now, when they are basically a novelty item for a pretty small amount of buyers.

 

[Nightdare]

The only reason I would consider this, is if it was able to reproduce the
Marshall JCM 900/JMP-1 Diode clipping

 

[Mattfig]

LOL :lol:
I knew you guys would do a great job of ripping these "transistors" a new *******. "Tone Grinder" what the hell is that name supposed to conjure up anyway? Maybe the grinding of teeth when you realize that you forked over $90 for these pieces of junk. And they supposedly last forever, so you get to suffer buyers remorse for years to come.
Seriously, shouldn't we be financially supporting the real tube market? If we play tube amps should we not create a demand for really great tubes? If we don't supply the demand for premium quality, reasonably priced, and readily available tubes, then we are really shooting ourselves in the foot, so to speak. The variety of manufacturers and configurations is part of what drives GAS and keeps us searching for that elusive tube/rig combination that just gets it done better than anything else. While a daunting task to find that perfect configuration, it is part of the experience and it is fun to try new things. If you guys keep one poor zit faced kid from spending all his allowance on packing his Spidervalve with Tonegrinders, then you have done a service to the musical community.
Guitar Johnny thanks you...

Maybe I missed something, but is that kid married???