You guys are going to love this

[Julia]

There recently was an amp shootout among four Marshall amps done on the Marshall forum and JVM forum. The amps used were:

* Marshall JCM800 2210 boost channel
* Marshall JCM900 DR Combo on the B channel
* Marshall Valvestate VS100 combo OD2 channel
* Marshall JVM OD1 Crunch Red

All set with the tones to be very similar. Blind test. The guy held back for 3 weeks and the votes are in:

30 - 27.03% JCM 800
18 - 16.22% JCM 900 DR
66 - 59.46% Valvestate
11 - 9.91% JVM

A hybrid amp (tube preamp/solid state power) won. I too selected #3. My personal guess was: 1) Valvestate, 2)JCM900, 3) JCM800, 4) JVM. So much for the JCM800 being the best sounding Marshall amp ever.

What would be really interesting is if someone did this with a few tube amps, an AXE FX, and an Eleven Rack, heck and if you could find the SS amp that Lynch used on "Tooth and Nail" throw that in the mix.

 

[Mattfig]

Interesting...Tone snobs hate being wrong too...There's probably a lot of debate over at that forum now...

 

[rhequiem]

I'm sure people will be commenting on how the results are flawed because of the recording quality of the (obviously) superior amps and whatnot hehe

 

[Jack Napalm]

It never fails once the results are in people back track and try and say the test wasn't properly done. Good tone can come in a variety of packages. Yep, some solid state amps suck. Guess what, so do some tube amps. There are good modelers out there as well.

I have an Axe-fx now as well, impressive. Simply impressive. The 11R is pretty **** nice as well. I wasn't planning on using my Axe live with the band I am playing in right now but with my Lynch Box down I will be using it at our next show. I replicated my Lynch Box/M13 setup in a matter of minutes and in some cases the results were better.

Don't let your eyes judge a tone. Listen to it. Something you are not used to using could surprise you.

 

[rhequiem]

Hey Jack - I've been seriously considering an Axe-FX Ultra, also. Almost pulled the trigger on one today. I love my MTS stuff, and don't imagine I'll be getting rid of it, but I figured the Axe-FX would add another world of possibilities to my setup. It sounds like I have a similar setup right now that you had - RM4 + RT2/50 + M13. Are you finding that the Axe gives you enough extra over your previous setup that it justifies the price of getting it?

 

[Jack Napalm]

I bought one as I might be playing with a band that requires in-ear-monitors and no amps on stage. I also have two QSC K12's that would work great in an FRFR setup. Which, I'll be using now, at least until my LB gets fixed. I also wanted it for recording.


The Axe is impressive. Very impressive. The feel is there and tone is there. I don't have years and years of experience with tube amps so depending on your pov it may or may not be worth squat.

The Axe allows for serial and parallel effects routing in a single patch. To me that was a serious eye opener. The LB/M13 combo is great, especially in a 4CM setup. You can do all of that and more inside the Axe. It takes a little different mind set. The Axe doesn't model all the different pedals and effects like the M13. It gives you a Chorus that can do anything. You just have to learn what it does and how to make it sound a certain way.

It does model od/distortion/fuzz pedals to a point but again it gives you the options to create just about any pedal. The amps are stellar! Use the Dave Friedman Marsha HBE model and you have a Mr. Scary module. Its all in there.

The cool thing I was able to replicate my LB/m13 setup in minutes. I still have some tweaking to do with effects but I could go as is and play our sets and the only people that would know any difference is myself. The band wouldn't even know.

With a good MIDI pedalboard you are all set. I'll be using an old X15 board. The MIDI functionality is there. Even with old boards such as mine. I think mine is going on 20 years old. Very flexible setup.

I can't wait to get my LB back in proper form but I know I won't miss a beat with the AxeFx.

 

[rhequiem]

Interesting... I'm a computer nerd, and very much into tweaking, and like the idea of the Axe-FX. The MTS stuff is my first real tube setup, so I'm totally new to the tube scene, as well. I'm tempted to try an Axe, just to see what it's all about, and sell whatever I don't decide to keep (if I decide not to keep it all hehe). I've been trolling hte Axe forums, and it seems there are a fair share of issues, but that seems related to the power and flexibility that the thing has. Still, $2000 is a $hitload of money for me, especially considering that I haven't begun to gig yet.

I have an old X-15 board, too! I still have the SGX 2000 Express that goes with it hehe. I also have a Behringer FCB1010 that I used with my Roger Linn Adrenalinn. I understand they make a mod chip for the FCB1010 called the UNO that makes it a good pedal board for the Axe.

 

[Jack Napalm]

Download Axe-Edit. It will show you a lot. I played with it for weeks before ordering. I didn't even get the Ultra. In retrospect I probably could use the Ultra for its better pitch shifter but I saved some money. I even bought a b-stock unit which saved a bit more.

I use the pitch shifter in the M13 for one song to detune a half step. It works but wasn't ideal. Livable for a song. With the Axe I am going to go to my backup guitar that I always have and just retune it. My backup is a fixed bridge guitar that is in drop-d tuning that I use for one song. I'll just retune in between sets.

The other Ultra stuff would be cool but I probably wouldn't use it much. The X-15 is proving to be a capable board for the Axe. There is one gotcha, your lights won't change depending on the patch. I am programming mine to be very simple however. I usually only use one effect per song, maybe two if I have lead. But its usually turning on a flanger, phaser or chorus for a part and turning it off. Lead usually consists of a delay and maybe a boost somewhere in the chain.

I am programming the X-15 so that for every patch my 'effect' button is the same button so I don't have to remember which one to press. My lead button will be another button, front row right, for every patch. I probably will only use a few of the foot switches in total. I have one setup for the tuner and another for tempo. The rest are extras and may be 'dead' just in case I step on them by accident.

 

[rhequiem]

I actually did download the Axe Edit software about a week ago, and have been playing with it a bit. I did notice how it doesn't use effect modeling, but just has one effect with a ton of settings. Interesting. We'll see how it plays out... I'm not unhappy with my MTS stuff; just exploring other sounds and setups to see what fits me best

 

[Julia]

Heck, you know I'd really like to hear a shootout between a given tube amp, RM4 (one stock and one modded module), AXE FX, Eleven Rack, and the new POD HD. Pick your amp. Dial them in so they sound as close as possible tonally. Record a short clip bone clean and reamp it through each.

Pick an amp whose model is on all the modelers and that we have modules for.

Rhythm clip with each. Followed by a lead clip with each. Doesn't have to be metal either. See which one we pick. Oh and make sure they're the same volume -- people tend to pick the loudest one normally.

 

[nothingeined]

There recently was an amp shootout among four Marshall amps done on the Marshall forum and JVM forum. The amps used were:

* Marshall JCM800 2210 boost channel
* Marshall JCM900 DR Combo on the B channel
* Marshall Valvestate VS100 combo OD2 channel
* Marshall JVM OD1 Crunch Red

All set with the tones to be very similar. Blind test. The guy held back for 3 weeks and the votes are in:

30 - 27.03% JCM 800
18 - 16.22% JCM 900 DR
66 - 59.46% Valvestate
11 - 9.91% JVM

A hybrid amp (tube preamp/solid state power) won. I too selected #3. My personal guess was: 1) Valvestate, 2)JCM900, 3) JCM800, 4) JVM. So much for the JCM800 being the best sounding Marshall amp ever.

What would be really interesting is if someone did this with a few tube amps, an AXE FX, and an Eleven Rack, heck and if you could find the SS amp that Lynch used on "Tooth and Nail" throw that in the mix.

That's crazy. I have the head version of the valvestate I bought about 10 years ago sitting in my room. I fired it up the other night while my RM80 was getting fixed and it did not sound too bad.

 

[hyenik]

Comparison between tube preamps/amps and HW/SW preamps is wasting time for now. Still not comparable, lack of cut through mids everytime, lost in complete mix immediately.
But this situation is not forever. For example SW plugins are better and better. My friend did with LePou X30 identical sample with tube Engl preamp. But again, only with contour off.....mids, mids, mids = electric guitar (whatever everybody think, this is simple physics)
So from sound of view AxeFX, RackEleven not even POD (which has absolutely catasthrophical speaker impulses) lost with good tube preamp. Believe or not, I don?t care. I have clear results after hundreds of tests what we did. And we reallyWANT to have some simple solution without tubes. We discovered way only for not neccesarry using of boxes and microphones.

PS: Valvestate is NOT amp, sorry. It is condensed evil

 

[Jack Napalm]

Well, after taking a few classes and having some very enlightening conversations with people who know sound and have designed, tube and SS amps as well as speakers over the course of entire careers I know enough to be really dangerous.

One thing I will maintain is that you do not need a tube power amp to 'cut through' the mix. Complete hogwash. Modelers and SS state amps have helped maintain this myth through improper design, capabilities and implementation over the years. A lot of factors have led to this myth.

Their is a whole new world out there with the capabilities that exist today. If you like tube amps, great, so do I. But if you take the time to learn and be open minded you may discover other solutions that work. Some times they may even work better than what you are currently doing.

 

[ned]

I've been gigging for over 2 years with nothing more than my GSP1101 and in ears. Bass player uses a POD X3 and monitors through his wedge.

The one thing that no amps on stage will do is make FOH sound even better. Your sound engineer will love you.

 

[Jack Napalm]

The one thing that no amps on stage will do is make FOH sound even better. Your sound engineer will love you.

+1

 

[Julia]

The one thing that no amps on stage will do is make FOH sound even better. Your sound engineer will love you.

+1

As will the people sitting close to the stage in what would otherwise be the "killzone" of the guitar amp.

 

[Mattfig]

The one thing that no amps on stage will do is make FOH sound even better. Your sound engineer will love you.

+1

As will the people sitting close to the stage in what would otherwise be the "killzone" of the guitar amp.

Good point....I was just at a show for a band that will remain unnamed at this point...All I heard through the entire show is the high pitched squeal of the 2nd guitar players POS amp that was right in front of me...I was not happy....Plus he played like ****....

 

[speedemon]

I haven't owned a JCM900, played one plenty tho. The rest I have had in some form. With the right preamp tube and speakers, the Valvestate is not a bad amp. With the wrong tubes and speakers, the rest are mediocre. I agree those amps are a bit overrated.

 

[GtrGeorge!]

I give Hyenik some credit for weighing in here.
You all heard his clips...he in fact,probably has more clips here THAN ANYONE. And I think most of us would say he knows tone.
I would.
And I agree with him....it's about what "works"..and alot of it has to do with mids. Circuits can be designed by engineers..but oddly enough it shouldnt be assumed that engineers know all about overtones, the interaction of pickups,wood, speakers, etc. I know, a good friend of mine IS an engineer and has worked for Gibson,Fender,Peavey etc etc he owns a number of patents..and for all the talk of inductance and capacitance..so much is still "We'll try it..and if it sounds good..we'll make a few".
Now, realize I am not a tone snob. I own lots of modeling stuff..and it still use it all the time. But in the most organic situations..drums,guitars and bass type-songs..the tubes make such a difference.
And in many synth heavy situations..the tube thing STILL seems to win out many,many times.
I love my FOH mix...I don't abuse sound people (ask those that have worked with me)...it is very easy to get a great sound without deafening everyone, and have it really adhere to the mix with tubes.
Specifically tubes in the preamps...somewhat less important in the power amp ..it depends on what genre your playing.
But hey..whatever makes you happy.
listen to Hyenik...I think the clips speak volumes.
If you want to hear ME..go to youtube and watch "The Fuse at Mulcahys"..that's me and my tubes playing at humane volumes. My modeling stuff is in the studio.
GtrGeorge

 

[Hamner1]

Hard for me to tell from the video, but I got out of it RM4 RT2/50 a multieffects unit & possibly a BBE (could have been a Power Conditioner - should really put my contacts in ) & maybe a tubescreamer (or other OD) on the floor. What module where you playing primarily? By the way it sounded pretty good.