Brahma module to different spec "Brown" Opinions +

[Kapo_Polenton]

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=1191247&songID=11167984

Ok be gentle, this is my first mod attempt. I messed around with the mic enough to get something decent enough but I know I'm slightly out of tune (sorry MikeP!) and I haven't mastered the art of compression because it doesn't seem that loud to me. I wish I could get the tone to sound a little more "dry" in the recording like MikeP has but I'll worry about that later.

So some thoughts:

1. You will notice that the mod sounds a bit hairy.. I like this because to me it replicates that plexi on ten or the sound a variac gives you when you drop the voltage. Kind of gives it character so I'm aware it may sound a bit fizzy.

2. I'm missing some mids. I need to really make those mids bark more. I might do this with a cap in c13 as well as open up the mid pot more. I have no knobs or face plate on right now so I can guess that the mid level was about at 1 or 2 pm.

3. a tad too much gain for the 1984 sound to my ears, I can dial it back and this thing sounds great with the gain at noon. Very usable to my ears.

4. My chops are rusty as hell.. I guess that's what happens when you try to split your time between drumming and axing.

What do you guys think? If you think it is a splatty mess, let me know. I'm just trying things out for fun and have zero aspirations to become a modder because I know nothing about this stuff other than having tinkered with my own amps and more or less tried to understand what the PCB equivalent is to the value in an amp. I got some help from Scott months ago and finally put it into practice.I then A / B'd a couple of my modules and this is what I came up with. I'm sure everything could sound better with better mic placement. Safe to say I am losing affection for sm57's. Discuss..

 

[hunter]

Sounds great. Has those important highs that I miss sometimes on the Judge. I don't think you need more mids, unless you want, but with the mids at 12-2Oclock, no need to mod, just turn em up.

I would leave it like this, perfect tone IMO.

I would say it's much closer to Eddie tone than Eddie is himself these days.

 

[alowerdeep]

never got the whole fascination with the "brown" sound myself...that being said..I think it sounds good,as good as some of the modded modules Ive heard......

 

[RADE01]

I really like that! Very Van Halen to me with more gain as you said.

If you're tiring of the SM57, why not try an Audix i5? They're a bit beefier, and I like them. I have both, but I'm no pro with recording, just starting out.

Would be interested in what you did to get the Brahma sounding like that.

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Thanks for the comments guys... I may try one or two more little things and post back with new clips and then you can let me know what you think. The "brown" sound really is just a superlead run balls out but I don't really have one of those to do it with so I thought i would see what this extra Brahma could do.

Rade, I started from a Brahma but the key is that the Brahma itself wasn't like the other Brahma that I have. This thing had no gain.. I also find it still has a few diff cap values in C7 and C13. R7 is gone (common gain mod mentioned here often) and I put a 100K in R14 like the Mr. Scary. Silver mica 100p on the tube board because my brahma was missing that too, .0022 in C8 and 100k in R22 like the scary. C3 is probably fairly important as it is the combination of resistors + caps that the brahma is known for and gives it that feel and tone I think.

I also think this could do a reasonable AFD tone too so that is a bit of a two for one bonus.. thanks to sacred groove for giving me ideas to play with though or else i would have been sitting here with a module with no gain. I don't think this is anything proprietary, just combining two modules really and noting any differences between my two brahmas.

 

[ibenhad]

Kapo_Polenton nice job. I wouldn't worry about the SM 57 I would get yourself a better mic pre. If you are going to be doing more recording a good mic pre will always be a great thing to have. Beware they can be as addictive and lots more expensive than MTS modules.

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Yeah, i'm torn on mic pres.. I have this presonus firepod which is great because it is an interface of 8 mics into cubase or Reaper but I am not crazy about it for distorted guitars. Drums and acoustics and voice can work fine but I am seriously considering one stand alone 2 mic in unit OR an older mic pre-mixer which i could then put through the presonus as the interface into my comp bypassing the pres on it. SM57's "should" work in theory because they were used on the majority of 80's recordings in one form or another..

 

[Mike P]

Yeah, i'm torn on mic pres.. I have this presonus firepod which is great because it is an interface of 8 mics into cubase or Reaper but I am not crazy about it for distorted guitars. Drums and acoustics and voice can work fine but I am seriously considering one stand alone 2 mic in unit OR an older mic pre-mixer which i could then put through the presonus as the interface into my comp bypassing the pres on it. SM57's "should" work in theory because they were used on the majority of 80's recordings in one form or another..

First, I think the recording sounds good. The guitars sound like they should sound and I think the '57 is more than suitable.

That said, the recording doesn't have a large "Sonic Footprint", meaning that if you were to add a bass guitar and drums, they'd need to be "small" as well. Otherwise, the guitars would get lost.

Now, records like 1984 are smaller in sonic footprint for a number of reasons, so if you were plug in a bass direct and use smaller sounding drum samples, you could easily make a recording similar to 1984 (which isn't much of a sonic treat or feat). But if you're wanting to go full-on, high end, master quality production, you'd need to make some serious upgrades in your signal path.

I can't speak for your goals but if you are interested in making some nice home recordings, I'd recommend a high quality bass and DI and a great drum library like Superior 2.0 with its myriad of kits and options available. With your current setup, you could easily create some nice tracks.

After you've added a nice bass guitar and dialed in some killer drum kits, you'll have a better idea of where to proceed next (preamp, converter, microphone, etc.). But I wouldn't advise proceeding with outboard gear until you have all of the pieces in place.

Good luck and let me know if I can help!

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Thanks MikeP, very useful info. I do actually plan to record my bass lines direct and for drums, well I am also a drummer and have my kit and mics (52 for kick, 57's toms, and some cheap behringer overheads) so I was going to use those in conjunction with samples/drum replacement to get a nice tone. I want to avoid sounding too modern and like the rawness of the 80's albums so that is my goal. As such, I was thinking I would keep that presonus for the drums but would look at investing some into my guitar signal chain. Anything you can recommend?

My goal is to record my own tunes/album. I've been writing tunes for 5 years and just have been to lazy or busy to get them down. Now that my basement studio is just about ready for all my gear, 2012 will be the year. After that, I wouldn't mind working with local musicians and helping them get their ideas on tape for demos etc... kind of a hobby if you will.

 

[ibenhad]

Some good sites if your into recording are http://messageboard.tapeop.com/ and gearslutz.com

Mics can really do a lot but a 57 into a better pre for guitars will be fine. See if you can find an older OramSonics Red it's a dual mic pre and eq in one. I have 4 of them and IMHO they sound great. I also have a Langevin AM-16 and a real Neve.

Here is a link to the newer Oram MWS which the Red preceded:
http://tradingpost.sweetwater.com/33093-used-oram-sonics-mic-pre

YMMV and like everything else around here remember opinions are like assholes and everyone has them. Me included... Good luck

 

[Mattfig]

Hey, that sounded really good...Really good...

 

[Nightdare]

If I compare a part of your clip to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyAhtArvHAc&feature=related
(If that is the real thing that is)

...you're only missing the phaser

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

and a tad more mids which I have addressed this afternoon. I think it sounds closer now too. I'll post another clip later..

 

[Mike P]

Thanks MikeP, very useful info. I do actually plan to record my bass lines direct and for drums, well I am also a drummer and have my kit and mics (52 for kick, 57's toms, and some cheap behringer overheads) so I was going to use those in conjunction with samples/drum replacement to get a nice tone. I want to avoid sounding too modern and like the rawness of the 80's albums so that is my goal. As such, I was thinking I would keep that presonus for the drums but would look at investing some into my guitar signal chain. Anything you can recommend?

Here's the biggest issue: Let's say you decide to purchase a $1000+ plus mic preamp for your guitar tracks and the guitar print huge. What about the bass? What about your drums? Unless you plan to purchase 12-16 channels of high end mic preamps and amazing mics for the drums, you'll have great sounding guitars, a tiny bass and garage sounding drums. That's a big dilemma.

Recording guitars is nothing compared to properly recording drums. Not only will you need high end mic preamps to keep up with your huge guitars, you'll need expensive high end microphones and racks of compressors (Room mics, Overheads, Kick drum mics, snare mics). And you'll also need expensive high end conversion like Apogee or Lynx Aurora, etc. Not to mention, a great room that's been properly treated, high end monitors, etc. and so on. It's a very slippery and expensive slope, especially as a hobby.

Personally, I think that's unnecessary. As I mentioned before, I'd purchase Superior 2.0 and a few drum libraries and dial in some killer kits for yourself. If you want to play instead of program, buy a trigger kit of choice (there are tons to choose from these days). Purchase a really nice Jazz bass and a Reddi DI for your bass.

Then, just have fun!

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

I think you make good points... perfect my recording techniques and mixing /mastering techniques and see how I stick with it or how important it is to me over the next year. I'd like to invest in another mic or two (maybe an MD421 to mix with the sm57's and I know I want an sm7b for vocals).

Steven Slate drums is awesome.. I can use my own mic hits (providing every tom or drum has it's own mic- which I can do) to trigger a sample and it responds to dynamics on the snare. I can then record my overheads and run them through other plugins to filter them out some and quiet them down (as you hear on most recordings, the crashes are extremely low in the mix while the ride and hats cut through). I know a buddy with a really nice fender bass that he hardly plays anymore so all I need is the DI. It isn't impossible to get decent results out of modest setups and if you think 1984's quality is nothing special and that is what I think is great, then I've already not set the bar too high! 8)

Here's a question though.. do you think it is the presonus mic pre's that are giving me what I feel is an unnatural round distortion to my tone? It just never seems dry to me. Would a diff mic pre make a diff Maybe the better question to ask would be, what do the difference in mic pre's make on the recorded tone?smoother? A more true capturing of what is coming out of the speaker??

 

[Mike P]

I think you make good points... perfect my recording techniques and mixing /mastering techniques and see how I stick with it or how important it is to me over the next year. I'd like to invest in another mic or two (maybe an MD421 to mix with the sm57's and I know I want an sm7b for vocals).

Steven Slate drums is awesome.. I can use my own mic hits (providing every tom or drum has it's own mic- which I can do) to trigger a sample and it responds to dynamics on the snare. I can then record my overheads and run them through other plugins to filter them out some and quiet them down (as you hear on most recordings, the crashes are extremely low in the mix while the ride and hats cut through). I know a buddy with a really nice fender bass that he hardly plays anymore so all I need is the DI. It isn't impossible to get decent results out of modest setups and if you think 1984's quality is nothing special and that is what I think is great, then I've already not set the bar too high! 8)

Here's a question though.. do you think it is the presonus mic pre's that are giving me what I feel is an unnatural round distortion to my tone? It just never seems dry to me. Would a diff mic pre make a diff Maybe the better question to ask would be, what do the difference in mic pre's make on the recorded tone?smoother? A more true capturing of what is coming out of the speaker??

1. I think the best course of action is to treat your new amp closet with the Markertek foam I linked and make sure to purchase the 3" variety. Keep in mind, it's not just foam but Acoustic foam, meaning that it's designed not to take away frequencies (unlike a bed topper, egg crates or any other cheap solution). I think that will help to achieve the "dry" sound you've described. Although in all honesty, I don't know what you're definition of "dry sound" is, so any input would be helpful to me to help you.

2. Steven Slate makes fine drum samples and I'm in no way discrediting his talent, company or abilities. It's awesome. But for me personally, they're too processed already, meaning they've been EQ'd and compressed, pitched and tuned to emulate certain records. There's certainly nothing wrong with that approach but I personally prefer samples like Toontrack offers, in which they've been recorded extremely well without processing. It's probably more difficult, for lack of a better term and no offense, for a hobbyist to use SSD's, but it's my personal opinion that in the long run, an end user will be able to create a more unique (and many variations) with Superior. But to each his own! Although, I think you'll be disappointed with your own cymbal hits because you're not using Apogee's or Myteks with Royer 122's or Coles or U87's or any number of great overhead mics.

3. Ah, preamps! There's no real definitive answer I can give you regarding preamps, especially high end preamps (I wouldn't mess around with off-brands and cheap preamps). Having owned countless preamps by many manufacturers, it all comes down to personal preference and taste.

After owning SSL, Brent Averill, API, Avalon and countless others, I greatly prefer the Vintech preamps, which are based on original Neve pre's. There's various opinions out there as to how "accurate" they are in replicating a Neve preamp but you can hear them on my recordings, as well as Green Day, Foo Fighters and on and on and on. I like my guitar amps to be "tight" but I like the mic preamps to be a little warm and "gushy", so the Vintech's fit the bill perfectly. The API and Brent Averill's sounded great but didn't "feel" right because they're very tight and fast.

A high end preamp will give you more "tone" and a bigger sonic footprint but outside of something like a Grace Audio or a Buzz Audio product, they won't replicate your source perfectly. Those preamps are better suited for orchestral recording, where accuracy is paramount. Rock is about the tone and for me, the Neve/Vintech tone is perfect for "my" sound. I have five channels of Vintech pre's and if I needed more, I'd buy them all over again. But keep in mind, they may not be for you. You may end up trying several pre's and come up with a completely different solution that makes you happy.

Hope this helps!

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

I think when I say "dry", I am referring to the fact that a lot of my recordings sound somewhat solid state and fake to my ears. Like certain frequencies are boosted or too harsh. If I compare our recordings, yours are very natural and well balanced. I wonder if the higher powered speaker has anything to do with this? I mainly mic the greenbacks in my 4 x 12. There is a fellow on Rig-Talk that had compared a small tube preamp with his presonus 8-in and there was a def. difference BUT he was still able to get a very usable sound with the presonus. I posted a question to see what his setup was and hopefully that will help me out some.

 

[Whoopysnorp]

Based on what you say, I think that a better mic might get you more of the 'dryness' you want. It's true that an SM57 is a perfectly fine mic for recording guitars, and countless professional guitar recordings have been made with it, but its sound is not one that I would characterize as replicating the experience of being in front of the speaker. I have not used an SM57 on guitar in years.

A studio owner friend of mine raved to me a few years ago about the Crowley & Tripp Naked Eye ribbon mic, saying it was the best mic he had ever used on electric guitar out of any other single mic or combination thereof. Shure bought out Crowley & Tripp, and now this mic is the Shure KSM313. I used to work for an online music gear retailer, and I had the opportunity to purchase one at well below retail. I'm very glad I did. It's not cheap, but I'll never record another guitar track without one.

Depending on what your situation is for space, I would say you don't necessarily need to give up the idea of recording your own drums, although it is true that it requires a certain amount of investment in gear. Here is a recording I did for an album I'm working on. This is just drums and guitar, and I played and recorded both in my rehearsal space. Here are the details of the recording chain:

Guitar: the left channel is my Michael Joly-modded MXL V69 tube condenser, and the right is the KSM313. The V69, by the way, is a standard-issue barely-usable shrill Chinese condenser in stock form. Michael Joly has a mod for this that involves giving it a new capsule and completely overhauling the signal path,?and it comes back sounding absolutely wonderful. Both mics are running through my Sebatron v4000e tube preamp. The guitar is my Edwards Les Paul copy with Duncan JB/59 pickups going into a Boogie Studio .22 combo into a Rectifier vertical 2x12 cabinet.

Drums: this is an early '80s Yamaha Tour Custom kit (13, 14, 16, 18, 24). The snare is a Supraphonic 402 with an Evans Power Center Reverse Dot head. Mics are as follows:

Overheads: Peluso CEMC6 in X/Y into Focusrite ISA428
Snare top: transformerless ("Tape Op modded") SM57 into Tascam M320 board preamp
Snare bottom: stock SM57 into Tascam M320 board preamp
Kick: Sennheiser MD421 into Tascam M320 board preamp
16" floor tom: Sennheiser e602 into Sebatron v4000e
18" floor tom: Audix D6 into Sebatron v4000e (although I'm pretty sure I didn't hit this drum in this recording)
Room: Behringer ECM8000 spaced low and wide in front of the kit, into Focusrite ISA428, and paralleled from there into DIs of Sebatron v4000e, then compressed really hard with an FMR RNLA

Everything was recorded with an RME Fireface 800.

http://genitalhercules.com/~mcrowe/zerogravitas/favorite_band_now.mp3

 

[Mike P]

I think when I say "dry", I am referring to the fact that a lot of my recordings sound somewhat solid state and fake to my ears.

That's due to several factors, none more important than a "proper" recording room or a heavily treated room. First and foremost, I recommend that you properly treat your space for best results.

Like certain frequencies are boosted or too harsh. If I compare our recordings, yours are very natural and well balanced. I wonder if the higher powered speaker has anything to do with this? I mainly mic the greenbacks in my 4 x 12.

The wattage of the speaker is irrelevant in regards to the frequencies. Now, the CL80 certainly sounds different than a V30 or reissue greenback, etc. and as I mentioned before, none of those speakers worked with the Bogner Cube. I've heard and recorded Scumback m65's in a M/B 4x12 cab that sounded awesome but recording 4x12 presents all kinds of issues, especially if you're in an acoustically poor space.

Where are you hearing "harsh" frequencies? From the cabinet or just when recorded? Unless I were in a properly treated or designed room that's at least 15x20, I'd avoid recording a 4x12 in favor or a 2x12 or a 1x12. It takes more power and volume to get the wood of the cabinet in the equation, which is certainly part of the tone.

Recording is a journey, sometimes short, sometimes long. But as I suggested earlier, I start with the basics and not try to jump into recording drum kits, etc. without at least first being happy with one aspect of your tracks. Otherwise, you're going to chase your tail for years on end and most likely, never get to a point where you're happy.

There is a fellow on Rig-Talk that had compared a small tube preamp with his presonus 8-in and there was a def. difference BUT he was still able to get a very usable sound with the presonus. I posted a question to see what his setup was and hopefully that will help me out some.

I don't think the Presonus is an issue at this point. It's not going to create frequencies that aren't there. It won't have the same clarity and sonic footprint of more expensive converters but there's no reason to drop $2k on converters when you're unhappy with the sound of your rig.

Start at the beginning: Amp, module, cabinet, speaker, guitar, strings, pickups, bridge, tuners, nut and cables. Once you're certain that you've done everything possible with each and every element. If you've done that and you're still unhappy, then it's quite possibly your listening environment (treated or untreated?), studio monitors, etc.

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Can't load the page or link for some reason? Very interested in hearing how that sounds though.

I've been spending some time treating the walls in my basement space but I agree, localizing the cab to a WELL treated all around area vs having it out in the middle of the room is probably the best place to start. It also has the benefit of allowing me to crank it up some and have some of the volume cut in my main listening area. I haven't bought monitors yet so I am essentially monitoring everything through Vic Firth isolation headphones that I bought for listening to music and protecting hearing while I drum. So a couple of things I'll need is 1. a good 1 x 12. Any thoughts on the Avatar 1 x 12's?

As for harshness.. I have the odd peaky highs that I associate to the reissue greenbacks but for the most part, I like what is coming out of the cab when I stand in front of it. What I don't like is how everything sounds when i put it to tape. I find the harshness is like a buzziness to the top end. I need to make the bass spongier and the highs less focused. So I need what I would call a nice dry and raw guitar tone but I need it to be softer than my sound sample that I posted. When I compare to your sounds, there is no comparison really.. your sounds kill mine (tube pre's aside). Even this guy's sounds: http://www.rig-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=103444 The second clip is the presonus. def. doesn't sound as good as the tube pre but it is the same tone coming through. That to me sounds closer to what I want. Sounds organic and not solid state. Not sure if that makes any sense though? As you'll see I've asked him more about the signal chain.

I'm thinking i might take a trip to a local music rental place and rent 4 or 5 diff mics and see what I can come up with. Probably won't cost me much to rent them for a weekend and would be cheaper than buying and flipping mics.