Mod 50 Got Buried By Bogner Shiva!

[EWSEthan]

Last night at band practice my Mod 50's got absolutely buried by my other guitarist's Bogner Shiva. Both were around the same volume and sounded good together jamming around, but when the whole band came in, I got buried badly.

I noticed it particularly with my MHG module. I was running with the following settings:

Gain: Noon
Treble: 2 oclock
Mids: Noon
Bass: 2 oclock
Bright Boost: 1
Bass Boost: OFF
Presence: 3 oclock
Depth 1 oclock

I was playing a stock PRS CE24 goldtop. We're playing again tomorrow night. Any suggestions?

-Matt

 

[bduersch]

What cabs are both of you using? (that's at least half the story) Or are they both combos? What guitar is the other guy playing?

I've never played an MHG so I can't comment specifically on that, but I have noticed that PRS pickups tend to be voiced a bit "dark" and therefore are easier to lose in a mix. My first inclination would be to push the mids/treble on the MOD50 a bit to compensate.

--B

 

[Scooter]

Ditto.

More mids.

 

[EWSEthan]

Wow, I didnt think I was really scooping the mids much. The other guitar player was using the Shiva 2x12 cab and a warmoth strat with duncan distortion in the bridge. I was using a Soldano 2x12 cab with Eminence's equivalent of V30s in there.

I didnt really notice this problem with my Suhr strat previously. Maybe the PRS has something to do with it.

Where are you guys setting your mids? I really didnt think Noon was too low.

-Matt

 

[bduersch]

Well, I'm not the best person to ask, since I can't get enough mids--mine's usually set up closer to 3:00.

The pickups may require a bit of compensation, though... I've used duncan distortions in the past and they tend to be brighter than PRS pups, so you may need to push a bit more mids/highs to "keep up".

--B

 

[gtr31]

his Shiva ,probably has el34's .
if all else fails put kt88,s in the choice tube of VHT.
Have you ever seen a Pittbull get buried????

 

[John Czajkowski]

my 3 cents: I think that one of challenges playing with two guitarists or guitar and keys is the tendency to raise volumes to correct level issues. If he is drowning you out in sections, it is not just your problem. If you guys can reach a consensus that there is a volume issue, then suggest that he help out. If he is an experienced musician and a team player, this shouldn?t be an issue. If he won?t, threaten to poison him in his sleep. Dialing in your rhythm and lead levels should be paramount. It?s as important as being in tune. I would actually suggest that you really ensure there are not too many mids as this is a common area with two guitarists and guitar and keys to suffer from frequency masking. I don't know what else you have in the mix, but if there are vocals and other stuff, then nobody has the luxury of running at one level the whole time - which complicates things further. With the MOD 50 you have the very practical feature of two volume settings per amp channel.

 

[ringemaster]

Max out your presence and boost your mids/treble a hair more.

 

[Chad]

my 3 cents: I think that one of challenges playing with two guitarists or guitar and keys is the tendency to raise volumes to correct level issues. If he is drowning you out in sections, it is not just your problem. If you guys can reach a consensus that there is a volume issue, then suggest that he help out. If he is an experienced musician and a team player, this shouldn?t be an issue. If he won?t, threaten to poison him in his sleep. Dialing in your rhythm and lead levels should be paramount. It?s as important as being in tune. I would actually suggest that you really ensure there are not too many mids as this is a common area with two guitarists and guitar and keys to suffer from frequency masking. I don't know what else you have in the mix, but if there are vocals and other stuff, then nobody has the luxury of running at one level the whole time - which complicates things further. With the MOD 50 you have the very practical feature of two volume settings per amp channel.

This man speaketh wisdom.

Being that midrange is a guitar's main thing, you are essentially boosting volume when you crank the mids. If you try to compensate by increasing mids or volume, then the whole band may just end up too loud and sound horrible. The key is finding whether you need to boost or the other guitarist needs to back down on his settings.

 

[3 Mile Stone]

I'm going to back John up on this one. The first thing I thought when I read your post was, yep been there, heard that before. He is probably just plain too loud, period. And as far as trying to boost this or that frequency, I also disagree. Most players that succesfully work together within a band, as John says, must do so as a team. And most of the time dis-similar guitars and amp tones work the best, with some glaring exceptions like Betts and Allman but agian, that was a case of exceptional, extraordinary coordination and cooperation not to step on each other. I think it's a mistake to try to occupy the same sonic territory he has. Stay where you are and make minor adjustments to your tone. I'm thinking add some presence overall. It's one thing to fault an amp for not cutting through when it's just you and Bass and Drums, but this is different. Get a DB meter out and bust him. :lol:

And I never had a problem hearing myself with my MOD 50 on the last gig. I am using PRS with Tom Anderson Pup's (pretty dark) and smooth mellow speaker types. The second guitarist in my band is using a 100 watt H&K Switchblade through a Boogie 2X12 Recto cab with V30's, BUT he knows how to lay low while it's MY time and I do the same for him. Teamwork, sonic space is where it's at.

 

[EWSEthan]

Thanks everyone. We've got rehearsal again tomorrow night and Ill be using my Suhr Strat so we'll see how things may change. Like I said, I dont remember having much of a problem when I wasnt using my PRS. Im going to check out what his settings are too.

Thanks,
Matt

 

[roodyrocker]

One more thing to consider is that Duncan Distortion pickup vs. the PRS one. My guess is that all else being equal, that Duncan is a much hotter pickup than the PRS.
Also, do you have any effects running through your rig? If so, try it without those effects and see if that makes a difference. Sometimes you don't notice the effects sucking tone out of your setup till you're in a situation like this.

 

[jmgman70]

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:34 pm Post subject:

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I'm going to back John up on this one. The first thing I thought when I read your post was, yep been there, heard that before. He is probably just plain too loud, period. And as far as trying to boost this or that frequency, I also disagree. Most players that succesfully work together within a band, as John says, must do so as a team. And most of the time dis-similar guitars and amp tones work the best, with some glaring exceptions like Betts and Allman but agian, that was a case of exceptional, extraordinary coordination and cooperation not to step on each other. I think it's a mistake to try to occupy the same sonic territory he has. Stay where you are and make minor adjustments to your tone. I'm thinking add some presence overall. It's one thing to fault an amp for not cutting through when it's just you and Bass and Drums, but this is different. Get a DB meter out and bust him.

I just had that issue with my MOD and the other guitaist was just "TO DAMM LOUD"I still had a hell of alot under the hood but whats the point,it has to be a team effort and a little patience .I am a proud OWNER of an MOD.John you da MAN!

 

[mavrick10_2000]

Your not really scooping the mids but 12 o'clock is flat (neither boost nor cut.) Your mids should probably be around the 2 o'clock area or to taste based on your power amp etc.

Also if your power amp has presence settings keep the setting low. Too high and it canl cause you to get lost in a band context.

 

[TheAbomb12]

Also if your power amp has presence settings keep the setting low. Too high and it canl cause you to get lost in a band context.

I thought it was the opposite... less presence makes it harder to hear in a band setting.

 

[EWSEthan]

So last night's rehearsal... the Mod 50 killed! I made some adjustments to my settings. Took off the bright boost, upped the mids to a little past 1 oclock, backed the presence off to about 1 oclock. I was also using my Suhr, not my PRS. Wow what a difference. Im not sure the Suhr pickups helped with the cutting or not, but they sure have an amazingly beefy and rich tone to them! Maybe taking off the bright and backing off the presence helped so that I wasnt competing with the symbals? Our drummer is a pounder.

Basically, Im not sure what happened (maybe the other guitar player was just too darn loud last time), but we spent a good 5 minutes setting levels and it helped alot.

The combined tones of the Egnater and Bogner sounded MASSIVE last night.

Thanks for all the input guys.

-Matt

 

[Jrm4]

With two guitar players it's always difficult, I noticed that I tweak a little more / less treble, mids or bass just depending on the day.
The basic settings are always the pretty much the same, but everytime I make just a tiny bit of adjustments.

Even if you play alone, the same settings need to be changed depending on the day. Have you ever had a day that you think "WOW this is the best sound ever!" and left / mark the settings. Then next time with exact same settings you sound like ****. It's black magic also!

I.e. if you're tired and drunk -> you automatically turn up the volume, it's the fastest and easiest way -> other guitarist puts up -> drummer hits harder and so on

I don't think bright switch off settings helps cutting trough mix.., I found it just the opposite, then again we play in different bands and every situation is unique.

One thing not to miss is the guitars tone pot. You can play for example verses of the songs with tone pot not Full on. When the chorus / lead hits, hit the tone to FULL.. now it cuts trough and adds more dynamics to your bands sound.

 

[mavrick10_2000]

Also if your power amp has presence settings keep the setting low. Too high and it canl cause you to get lost in a band context.

I thought it was the opposite... less presence makes it harder to hear in a band setting.

You are correct, I meant to say a little lower, not like all the way down. That'll happen when you've had too many beers and are trying to post to two different forums at the same time. :wink:

 

[John Czajkowski]

The combined tones of the Egnater and Bogner sounded MASSIVE last night.

Thanks for all the input guys.

-Matt

Good to hear it was better. I'm glad you didn't have to poison him. Ya know, evading the law is much harder these days...I'm really jealous that you have your Mod 50. I'm still waiting on my babies. It is killing me!

 

[3 Mile Stone]

Ya, I'm glad it sounded cool too. Go back to the PRS one time just to check it out. I agree with jrm4 too. I have my in my room and one night it's godlike. I'll come in another night and and it's like ... "who's been playing my amp?" All kinds of human earthly mischeif is involved.