More Gain - really?

[PhiloBeddoe]

I'm always surprised when people say they need more gain from their modules. Even when playing heavy stuff I tend to keep the gain under noon. Anyway, I thought this article was pretty good on the subject. It's focused on recording, but too much gain live will also make guitars disappear.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/document?doc_id=105256&src=3NL9JH1&ZYXSEM=0

 

[wengnutt]

That was great article!

I've actually just started recording recently, and I noticed I don't need anywhere near the gain I usually play with. It's just WAY too much. I think I had my 1086 with the gain on half way, and it was almost too much as well. Surprisingly, the mid-gain modules (Plexi, XTC) did VERY well for heavy stuff.

 

[Julia]

And as a side note, I've noticed a pretty standard backline with some heavy rock bands: The Marshall 1987 with a Mesa cab.

 

[Nightdare]

....and people wonder when playing a 'lone' plexi or JCM 800 it doesn't sound as heavy as they'd imaging they were
(I think it's safe to say we all made that misstake :wink: )

I wonder how people are limiting feedback when playing with 'high' gain at high volumes
...choke the crap out of it with noisesuppressors and gates?

 

[Julia]

They use my Decimator G-string paperweight. I haven't used a noise gate in months. There is a volume knob on the guitar. and if you have two pickups and a three-way switch you can use a it like a kill switch. Or tap your tuner to mute.

 

[okstrat]

Personally, I hate gates because you lose the decay and the ability to manipulate your volume knob on the guitar for a variety of gain and tones. But, different strokes for different folks.

There's a world of difference between someone playing at loud gig levels and someone playing fairly low volume at home... I've ran my high gain amps with the gain knob at about 9 oclock at gig volumes and have plenty of gain. You also get hard to control feedback with a high gain amp and a lot of volume too if you're very close.

 

[hyenik]

8)
I?m glad that this thread appeared here, but unfortunatelly is useless
People which wanted "pure tube metalzone sound" never understand and never changed.
(and of course important is which label is on tube, don?t forget

Every stock Randall module has MORE gain then is really needed.
Higher gain is good only for soloing and one-string riffs, in normal rhythm playing is disadvantage.
Yes players are different, but NOBODY needs for example UltraXL with more gain. This is amateur?s stupidity and deafness.
Sorry for so cruel words, but this forum with typical jokes like "gain on tap" and "brutalzzzz" is true picture of this dead end of sound.

 

[Julia]

Personally, I hate gates because you lose the decay and the ability to manipulate your volume knob on the guitar for a variety of gain and tones. But, different strokes for different folks.

There's a world of difference between someone playing at loud gig levels and someone playing fairly low volume at home... I've ran my high gain amps with the gain knob at about 9 oclock at gig volumes and have plenty of gain. You also get hard to control feedback with a high gain amp and a lot of volume too if you're very close.

Pete you're right.

And there is a similarity of playing at home in a studio 8 ft away from your 412 running MV and channel levels at noon. I can't turn my gain knobs past noon. I run my Grail at 10:00 and there's plenty of gain, sustain, and controlled feedback. SL+ runs at noon. JTM at 11:00. And I can still nail a pinch harmonic on the 21st fret on E1.

Hmmm... maybe there is something to "tone is in the fingers" afterall.

After I unloaded the squealfest of the JVM, I by default because I had it, put the Decimator G-string on the LB. After playing with this amp a while, and trying to diagnose a problem I pulled everything out of the loop and found I didn't need the thing. My technique had gotten better to where I could kill uncontrollable feedback without a gate by turning down the gain and finding that it sounded better that way.

 

[PhiloBeddoe]

8)
I?m glad that this thread appeared here, but unfortunatelly is useless
People which wanted "pure tube metalzone sound" never understand and never changed.
(and of course important is which label is on tube, don?t forget

Every stock Randall module has MORE gain then is really needed.
Higher gain is good only for soloing and one-string riffs, in normal rhythm playing is disadvantage.
Yes players are different, but NOBODY needs for example UltraXL with more gain. This is amateur?s stupidity and deafness.
Sorry for so cruel words, but this forum with typical jokes like "gain on tap" and "brutalzzzz" is true picture of this dead end of sound.

But it won't be useless if we can change just one life!

I would suggest that any doubters stick a mic in front of their amp, turn it up to 'brutalzzz", turn on their Metalzone pedal, Decimator, and every other gadget they think they need and record it in a song with drums, bass, etc. Then turn all that BS off and try it again. Or just ask the author of the article, or Michael Wagener, or Andy Sneap, or any other big time producer if they need 'more gain'.

I'm glad to see there is a population here that gets it. I'll take the harsh words one step further and say that folks that need 'more gain' out of their high gain modules really want a crutch for their playing.

Just to be clear, this is not to say that mods are useless. I just sent Pete my second module for modification because he is able to change the tone, tighten up bass, etc. Completely different.

 

[hyenik]

control question:
Why people (Sneap, KSE etc) using tubescreamer in front of higain heads (especially recto)? For boosting?

 

[PhiloBeddoe]

control question:
Why people (Sneap, KSE etc) using tubescreamer in front of higain heads (especially recto)? For boosting?

They are using it for tone sculpting as opposed to overdrive. Sneap keeps the drive around 9oclock. It mostly serves to tighten up the bottom end and get a little more attack.

I have a Maxon OD808 and it does have this effect but I always revert back to guitar straight into amp. I'm not Andy Sneap either though, but I'm also not using a 5150 or recto.

 

[Nightdare]

Most "play at home" peeps can agree that when playing along your favorite band at a certain point, -at best- more gain gives no added value whatsoever
or your guitar gets basicly lost in it's own mud

 

[SacredGroove]

Great discussion!

I mainly record, nowadays, and almost every track I record, I find I don't need as much gain. It's been a slow compromise, but my overall tone is getting better and more to my liking. Especially when double tracking, less gain is more tone! There is plenty of gain in our modules for great lead sustain and controlled feedback.

I never got along well with gate pedals because I learned at an early age how to work the volume knob. Growing up, I always had amps that were way under-powered for the situation I was in, so they'd have to be cranked to 11 to be heard. The exception to this was the Rocktron hush, built in to the Piranha preamp which was quite manageable because it's an expander.

 

[hyenik]

They are using it for tone sculpting as opposed to overdrive. Sneap keeps the drive around 9oclock. It mostly serves to tighten up the bottom end and get a little more attack.

I have a Maxon OD808 and it does have this effect but I always revert back to guitar straight into amp. I'm not Andy Sneap either though, but I'm also not using a 5150 or recto.

Yeah, tighten (or clean up) basses and ADD mids! No f*** scoopy, but add mids. And this is simple physics - Electric guitar is mostly about mids. What is happened if you cut them out ? What is the rest? .....yes, bullshit not brutal. But this "secret" is not for Phil, but for all "brutal" lovers.....

Gain is the same. Too much = too shitty sound, and again all Randall mods have MORE than enough gain. And if you don?t believe to me (this is not surprise) try to believe Andy Walace or Andy Sneap, or EVERY sound engineer or producer.

 

[hyenik]

Especially when double tracking, less gain is more tone!

This is another paradox. If you recorded double rhythm guitar (and this is "factory" standard), finally you will have more gain, than is dialed! Typical mistake of beginers, everybody can try at homerecording.....

 

[Julia]

I've typically used two rhythm guitars. I've re-recorded the rhythm tracks just to avoid that weird phase cancellation that some people get by just duplicating a track and shifting it slightly, or changing the EQ. It's still the same picking, same sound, just moved. You're going to get phase cancellations.

I've used Grail and either Mr. Scary or my 5150 for the second track. Pan them to different channels and voila no phase cancellation. Kinda low gain too but it sounds huge. I've even used four rhythm guitars using three modules and the 5150 panned differently. Wall of sound. All set low gain. Still sounds huge and high gain. No mud.

I'll also double record note for note leads.

The thing to do so it doesn't sound weird to you is to get used to the lower gain sound when you're practicing -- plus this will lead to better technique.

 

[salvation]

I'm always surprised when people say they need more gain from their modules. Even when playing heavy stuff I tend to keep the gain under noon. Anyway, I thought this article was pretty good on the subject. It's focused on recording, but too much gain live will also make guitars disappear.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/document?doc_id=105256&src=3NL9JH1&ZYXSEM=0

100% agree!

 

[salvation]

I'm always surprised when people say they need more gain from their modules. Even when playing heavy stuff I tend to keep the gain under noon. Anyway, I thought this article was pretty good on the subject. It's focused on recording, but too much gain live will also make guitars disappear.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/document?doc_id=105256&src=3NL9JH1&ZYXSEM=0

100% agree!

Anthony

 

[maximus1]

i think you guys are bashing the kind of music that you don't play in the first place. you really think dino doesn't use a gate , just his volume knob with the gain under noon. if your amp won't saturate like you want it to then it doesn't have enough gain period. i'm sure messugah only needs a marshall plexi and a 3 pickup sg, come on now. the dicsussion is useless

 

[PhiloBeddoe]

i think you guys are bashing the kind of music that you don't play in the first place. you really think dino doesn't use a gate , just his volume knob with the gain under noon. if your amp won't saturate like you want it to then it doesn't have enough gain period. i'm sure messugah only needs a marshall plexi and a 3 pickup sg, come on now. the dicsussion is useless

Who is bashing a kind of music?

Meshuggah seems to use PODs or clean boosts into very ordinary amps. I don't see any distortion pedals or gates mentioned here.

http://www.tandjent.com/meshforum/showthread.php?t=3129