RM4 and Stereo FX

[ronstephens]

This is how I've been running my rig:
Guitar -> RM4 -> Pre Loop Out (mono) -> TC G-Major (mono input) -> TC stereo outs -> Mesa 20/20 inputs -> speakers

The upside is I get stereo FX. But there are two downsides to this setup:
1. There is a HUGE gain loss running the TC in series between the RM4 & 20/20 (regardless of the global input/output settings).
2. The RM4 Master control effects the TC's input (duh) which, in digital world, is not good (lower level = fewer bits for the processor to work with).

I was willing to forego stereo and run the TC in mono through the RM4's Series loop like this:
Guitar -> RM4 -> mono series loop in/out with TC -> RM4 Post Loop outs -> 20/20 -> speakers (2 channel mono).

But... the Master effects the loop send(!?!).

I'd like to send the TC a constant level, then control the level to the 20/20 with the RM4's Master. Am I missing something?

 

[HughJasol]

I use an M4 rather than an RM4; and I use a TC Electronic G-System using the 4-cable method rather than a G-Major. However, the MASTER setting is still a key setting for either one of our setups: The (R)M4 MASTER must be set high enough for a good signal-to-noise ratio, but not high enough to induce clipping. So you can still run your stereo configuration, you just need to set the module MASTERs so that all the modules have the same level between them, and then set the MASTER on the (R)M4 to give you the highest signal-to-noise ratio without clipping.

There's a great white paper by Laird Williams on setting up the G-System, and his own personal setup includes an Egnater M4. I'm sure many of the pointers on setting the level properly would apply to your RM4/G-Major setup as well. You can find his white paper here.

Hope this helps . . .

 

[ronstephens]

But that doesn't give a way to control the overall output to the pwr amp/spkrs that doesn't change the level being sent to the FX.

Setting good levels isn't a problem. I understand good gain structure, etc. The question is, how to adjust the level to the prw amp without disturbing the gain staging w/the FX. If the FX sends were PRE-master, everything would be easy.

Thanks!

 

[eedude]

ohhhh say it isn't so... the master volume on the RM4 is pre loop? grrrr now i gota rewire that too! Who puts a master volume pre loop? I have a power amp with no front controls, so you have to use the pre-amps volume control...if it's pre loop that's just useless.

 

[SacredGroove]

I've talked about this before in other threads and it's kind of bothersome, the way the loops are set up. The loops are really nothing more than extra I/O, post-master volume.

Using the serial loop is the same as running the pre loop out into a FX unit. The Parallel loop splits the main out to blend with the FX. Both loops should be pre-module volume, so any volume/level changes made to a module won't effect the loops.

Since the loops are this way, I've used it to my advantage with my recording setup. I see it as having 5 outputs that are the same and I don't have to do any external splitting if I want to have multiple outputs to record at one time.

 

[HughJasol]

So does that mean that the advantage of having effects loops, which the RM4 has over the M4 (which has no loops whatsoever) is really not as significant as it appears?

 

[SacredGroove]

So does that mean that the advantage of having effects loops, which the RM4 has over the M4 (which has no loops whatsoever) is really not as significant as it appears?

Yes. The original M4 and IE4 didn't have FX loops either. I think they were just a late addition to the Randall gear, maybe an after thought.

Although, the parallel loop still works as it should, but it gets it feed from the main output.

I think, within the last 6 months, Bruce explained in detail the fx loops on the RM series, here on the forum. It was part of an existing thread so it may be a little hard to find.

 

[m0jo]

The FX loops are buffered though right?

So there should be a difference between the pre-out and the loop sends/post-out..

@ ronstephens:
You could set it up like HughJasol explains, then leave the module volumes and RM4 master alone and use the preset level on the G-Major to have control over the volume going to the poweramp.

It your poweramp had a volume knob (it most probably will) that will be your actual master volume (like it is in most heads, after the effects).

If you do that you basically move the volume per tone to behind the effects and the master after everything, where it should be.

 

[GtrGeorge!]

maybe Im missing something here..but leave the master vol on the rm4 where you like it...therby giving a nice gain to the Gmajor...now control the output of the rig by the output volum of the gmaj..which is midi controlable. You could use Continous controller pedal or just set up static volumes at a specific level in each preset.
What do ya think of this idea?

and yeah..if ya have multiple loops on a devide wouldnt it be smart to have on pre-master vol and another post? I think the future of the MTS series should have that,if possible.
GtrGeorge

 

[SacredGroove]

The FX loops are buffered though right?

So there should be a difference between the pre-out and the loop sends/post-out..

@ ronstephens:
You could set it up like HughJasol explains, then leave the module volumes and RM4 master alone and use the preset level on the G-Major to have control over the volume going to the poweramp.

It your poweramp had a volume knob (it most probably will) that will be your actual master volume (like it is in most heads, after the effects).

If you do that you basically move the volume per tone to behind the effects and the master after everything, where it should be.

It's all buffered. You could use the pre loop out as a send and it will be identical as a designated send.