Its been a long journey with MTS...

[rhequiem]

Those Axes are selling pretty darned good for things that sound sterile and lame hehe Last I heard they can barely keep them in stock. Got a line a mile long, too! They aren't cheap, either, last I checked.

It's all whatever floats your boat, as I say. I learned awhile back that people just have their own tastes and opinions as far as what they think sounds "real" or "genuine". I think something some people don't consider is that having something like an Axe affords you the ability to really create your own sound quite easily (through mixing amp types and changing tonestacks and such). Many of the amp models in the Axe, for example, are Fractal Audio's own creations (like FAS Lead, for example), so it isn't 100% pure imitation any more than the MTS stuff is 100% pure imitation (though both are largely based on copies of the "real" thing).

 

[Mike P]

Those Axes are selling pretty darned good for things that sound sterile and lame hehe Last I heard they can barely keep them in stock. Got a line a mile long, too!

The same was said for the POD, Guitar Rig, Amplitube, etc. There were lines "miles long" for the first kidney bean POD, POD Pro's, etc. But that doesn't mean that they were equal to the tube amps they tried to emulate.

They aren't cheap, either, last I checked.

Compared to the price of purchasing each of the amps they model, I'd say they're hella cheap.

It's all whatever floats your boat, as I say. I learned awhile back that people just have their own tastes and opinions as far as what they think sounds "real" or "genuine".

Well, "real" is "real". Either it's the "real thing" or it's a digital emulation.

There's nothing wrong with choosing an Axe FX or POD or whatever over a room full of tube amps. I know guys that are gigging in Vegas with nothing more than a direct box and a laptop. It's all good.

For critical applications like master quality recording, there's only one effective choice and that's to record tube amps. Otherwise, you're compromising the integrity of your recordings and in the competitive world we live in, I find that to be unacceptable.

 

[bhuard75]

Last I heard they can barely keep them in stock. Got a line a mile long, too! They aren't cheap, either, last I checked.

Cant keep them in stock? Where did you hear that? The line is a mile long because they trickle them out to their customers. Guys on other forums have been waiting way to long for their orders. As far as I'm concerned that type of business practice is an artificial dirt bag way to keep the demand higher than it actually is. But their is a market demand for them I agree.

 

[stm113]

Not to continue you an argument (that's not what I intended at all here) but you keep talking about critical applications. I have the opportunity to get to know alot of information from techs both in & out of recording studios due to some affiliations so I get to know alot about what gear is being used, like one of the techs that worked in the studio on the last Nickleback album & how they used Line 6 X3 beans in the studio to suppliment tones they weren't getting out of their amps, can't think of more crutial application than a major label multi -platinum selling artist.

No offense but I wish that you'd just come out and say that you're simply a tube purist and you'll never completely accept anything that's not tube. Which there is nothing wrong with being a purist. And as far as the "sterile" sound that you're talking about is the same vibe that I get from my MTS stuff and that is all tube.

I agree that it comes down to preference and what you want to gain and what you're willing to compromise to get it. But to my ears (and I tend to get some respect for my tastes among musicians I know) I am not losing much if anything with the Axe and I am gaining so much more.

And lastly about critical applications I'd have to take my cues from the pros who do this for a living and since you can't look into the gear used on major rock tours and not find something by Line 6, Eleven Rack (Avid), Amplitube, Guitar Rig and now more and more the Axe FX I'd say its good enough for me and I'd be willing to bet it you'd take the advice from Ty Tabor and listen with your ears and not your eyes, it'd be good enough for you too.

 

[VitaminG]

Last I heard they can barely keep them in stock. Got a line a mile long, too! They aren't cheap, either, last I checked.

Cant keep them in stock? Where did you hear that? The line is a mile long because they trickle them out to their customers. Guys on other forums have been waiting way to long for their orders. As far as I'm concerned that type of business practice is an artificial dirt bag way to keep the demand higher than it actually is. But their is a market demand for them I agree.

it's because they are a small operation that refuses to farm the work out to China. If they did, they'd match demand and prices would come down. And there'd be an uproar about yet another manufacturer sending jobs offshore.

 

[bhuard75]

Anybody got the F*KKhen PowerBall numbers for Saturday's drawing?

 

[Mike P]

Not to continue you an argument (that's not what I intended at all here) but you keep talking about critical applications. I have the opportunity to get to know alot of information from techs both in & out of recording studios due to some affiliations so I get to know alot about what gear is being used, like one of the techs that worked in the studio on the last Nickleback album & how they used Line 6 X3 beans in the studio to suppliment tones they weren't getting out of their amps, can't think of more crutial application than a major label multi -platinum selling artist.

Proof or it didn't happen.

Furthermore, if Nickelback had to "suppliment" their "tones" with Line 6, then something is REALLY amiss considering they essentially bought every piece of gear, including the SSL, at Little Mountain Sound in Vancouver.

I call BS.

No offense but I wish that you'd just come out and say that you're simply a tube purist and you'll never completely accept anything that's not tube. Which there is nothing wrong with being a purist. And as far as the "sterile" sound that you're talking about is the same vibe that I get from my MTS stuff and that is all tube.

No offense but you obviously have issues in your signal chain. I've posted dozens of tracks here in the past year, all of which are airing on TV on one program or another. Are you going to tell us all that they are "sterile" sounding?

I agree that it comes down to preference and what you want to gain and what you're willing to compromise to get it. But to my ears (and I tend to get some respect for my tastes among musicians I know) I am not losing much if anything with the Axe and I am gaining so much more.

Good for you. Why don't you link us to some badass guitar tones and tracks recorded with your Axe FX so that we can judge for ourselves?

And lastly about critical applications I'd have to take my cues from the pros who do this for a living

Who? How successful? Multi-Platinum producers you know? Name them. Successful Composer/Producers? Name them.

and since you can't look into the gear used on major rock tours and not find something by Line 6, Eleven Rack (Avid), Amplitube, Guitar Rig and now more and more the Axe FX I'd say its good enough for me

I'm sorry, "good enough" doesn't cut it in MY business. Furthermore, 99.99% of those guys are using the EFFECTS, not the amp simulations.

and I'd be willing to bet it you'd take the advice from Ty Tabor and listen with your ears and not your eyes, it'd be good enough for you too.

With all due respect to Ty Tabor, I couldn't give a flying f***. Ty Tabor has always been a solid state amp guy, from the Yamaha's to Lab Series, etc.

And in NO way, shape or form is Axe FX "good enough" for me.

What a joke.

 

[Mike P]

it's because they are a small operation that refuses to farm the work out to China. If they did, they'd match demand and prices would come down.

So what you're saying is that they're overpriced?

I agree 100%. I wouldn't pay $300 for an Axe FX, let alone $2700 or whatever their current asking price may be.

What a bunch of suckers.

And there'd be an uproar about yet another manufacturer sending jobs offshore.

Yeah, I'm sure that Wall Street would never recover if Axe FX moved their operation to China.

The horror.

 

[rhequiem]

The same was said for the POD, Guitar Rig, Amplitube, etc. There were lines "miles long" for the first kidney bean POD, POD Pro's, etc. But that doesn't mean that they were equal to the tube amps they tried to emulate.

There was? I don't recall that, but even if it were true, it's really apples and oranges. I've owned PODs and Axes, and I think a large percentage would agree that there are vast differences between any Line6 product and an Axe FX. People are waiting months (upon months) to get Axes, and willing to pay far, far more than any Line6 modeler to get it. There's something to be said for that, just on its own merit. People normally aren't very willing (even us GAS-crazed musos) to shill out that kind of quid for a product that has inferior sound quality. There is some truth in consumer behavior. Just sayin'

Compared to the price of purchasing each of the amps they model, I'd say they're hella cheap.

I'd disagree - especially if those emulations are "lame". I'd rather put my $2600 towards a "real" amp rather than get 50+ POS's, personally.

Well, "real" is "real". Either it's the "real thing" or it's a digital emulation.

I see your point, but how "real" is the MTS stuff? Sure, it has tubes and circuit boards and such, so those are physical things - but modelers have real components, also... And the MTS stuff is a tube modeler of the "real" amps. Seems like some gray area here that I'm surprised more of the MTS users aren't residing in. I recall reading a thread recently on this very forum about how closely the MTS stuff replicates the "real" amps, with some users even claiming the MTS stuff sounds better than the "real" thing.

There's nothing wrong with choosing an Axe FX or POD or whatever over a room full of tube amps. I know guys that are gigging in Vegas with nothing more than a direct box and a laptop. It's all good.

I totally agree, just like there's nothing "wrong" with choosing a room full of tube amps over any modeler. It's all good, man I can't help but chime in on these discussions every once in awhile, because I'm curious why people get so polarized over modelers and tube amps sometimes. I think I have a pretty open mind, and love having both rigs (though, I admit, I use the Axe far more than my tube rig).

For critical applications like master quality recording, there's only one effective choice and that's to record tube amps. Otherwise, you're compromising the integrity of your recordings and in the competitive world we live in, I find that to be unacceptable.

I can't really comment on this personally, because I use my rigs 100% for live applications right now, but I am fairly certain there are a fair number of Axe users that are creating some highly professional and polished material with their Axes. I've heard a fair number of the clips myself, and have been amazed by what people can do (yourself included, who I respect, fyi!) with both the Axe and traditional tube amps/mics/etc. I think all of this gear is just tools, and some people can use certain tools (or learn to use certain tools) to make professional-quality material in a way that makes sense to their process. [/i]

 

[Mike P]

There was? I don't recall that, but even if it were true, it's really apples and oranges.

Sam Ash and Guitar Centers in LA couldn't keep the POD's in stock for the first year. When the POD Pro's came out a few years later, same thing happened.

Compared to the price of purchasing each of the amps they model, I'd say they're hella cheap.

I'd disagree - especially if those emulations are "lame". I'd rather put my $2600 towards a "real" amp rather than get 50+ POS's, personally.

Well, if they're as accurate as some people boast, they're most certainly cheap. Do you know much money most Composer/Producers and serious recording facilities have paid for classic and modern amps? I can tell you it's far more than $2700 dollars.

Well, "real" is "real". Either it's the "real thing" or it's a digital emulation.

I see your point, but how "real" is the MTS stuff? Sure, it has tubes and circuit boards and such, so those are physical things - but modelers have real components, also... And the MTS stuff is a tube modeler of the "real" amps. Seems like some gray area here that I'm surprised more of the MTS users aren't residing in. I recall reading a thread recently on this very forum about how closely the MTS stuff replicates the "real" amps, with some users even claiming the MTS stuff sounds better than the "real" thing.

It's "real" because it's analog - tubes, circuits, etc. Digital is digital: Ones and Zeroes. Very different.

And if a particular module has "improved" upon an original sound, all the better. At least it's not that murky, filtered, nasty sound of digital.

I totally agree, just like there's nothing "wrong" with choosing a room full of tube amps over any modeler. It's all good, man I can't help but chime in on these discussions every once in awhile, because I'm curious why people get so polarized over modelers and tube amps sometimes. I think I have a pretty open mind, and love having both rigs (though, I admit, I use the Axe far more than my tube rig).

People are polarized because if given the choice, a guitarist, producer, and engineer would choose a tube amp over a digital emulation 999,999 times out of one million.

I can't really comment on this personally, because I use my rigs 100% for live applications right now, but I am fairly certain there are a fair number of Axe users that are creating some highly professional and polished material with their Axes.

And I have not. I've heard clips posted on various forums and quite honestly, I think Guitar Rig 4 is more realistic than Axe FX and I'd never use that for either a film or TV program.

I've heard a fair number of the clips myself, and have been amazed by what people can do (yourself included, who I respect, fyi!) with both the Axe and traditional tube amps/mics/etc. I think all of this gear is just tools, and some people can use certain tools (or learn to use certain tools) to make professional-quality material in a way that makes sense to their process. [/i]

I don't think a true professional, i.e., someone who make a serious living at composing or producing music, is going to choose Axe FX over a tube amp at this point in time. I know plenty of working professionals that wouldn't even consider it, let alone, use it.

Guys that have $75k-$1 million in studio gear don't need a digital emulation. They can use the real thing.

 

[stm113]

To Mike P, I am going to be the bigger man here and squash this... I'll say that everything I wrote is 100% spot on from my end. I never meant for there to be harsh words here. I will say that you feel that tube amps are the way to go for you and thats cool. For me the Axe FX II works out better, please dont diss it, just accept that there are people out there who have differing opinions and theirs are as valid as yours.

I have used myself, seen used and know of the use of the modeling gear you do not like on small to large budget recordings. It does come down to taste. I wont say that I have been involved in more "critical applications" than you have and I will not say that I havent, and really its not important which is more accurate. In the end I am happy & the people that pay me are happy with the results that I get sonically.

When I do record with the Axe FX I will be sure to post some things here.

Lastly you mention my signal chain, at the most "sterile" that I felt the MTS was sounding was running ESP Eclipse Deluxe (emgs) or LP Standard (burstbucke pros) through Mogami cables into RM4 to 4X12 loaded with V30s. As well as same set up with TC Electronic G Major or Boss GT Pro in Loop.

Fact of the matter is if you read back through alot of the threads I start the theme is usually needing more tone wise from my Randall stuff, no I never got any modded but that was because I didnt want to spend more on this line when I wasnt completely happy with the foundation of the tone I was getting. I am happy now with my tone, and I appreciate who ever is happy for me. As I am happy for every guitarist who is happy with their tone.

 

[stm113]

I forgot to mention that In my post I never said i know the producers, I actually said I have met alot of techs who in the studios & techs who are on tour. That is where my knowledge of gear being used comes from, the guys who set it up in alot of cases.

 

[VitaminG]

it's because they are a small operation that refuses to farm the work out to China. If they did, they'd match demand and prices would come down.

So what you're saying is that they're overpriced?

not what I was saying at all. You're drawing a long bow there.

just a fact that a widget made in America (or here in Australia) is often going to cost more than a widget made in China.

I agree 100%. I wouldn't pay $300 for an Axe FX, let alone $2700 or whatever their current asking price may be.

Even made in China, I can't see the Axe ever going for $300. But whether it is overpriced is for the market to decide. It isn't a Zoom 505, it shouldn't be priced like one. Just like an Eventide unit isn't priced like something similar (but of lesser quality) from Digitech.

And there'd be an uproar about yet another manufacturer sending jobs offshore.

Yeah, I'm sure that Wall Street would never recover if Axe FX moved their operation to China.

The horror.

I don't know whether Wall Street would give two shits. But I know plenty of flag waving GAS sufferers bemoan that you cain't buy good ol' Made in America anymore, with all the Evil Corporations moving their manufacturing off shore, costing Americans jobs and income. All the while enjoying the benefits of cheaper TVs made in SE Asia bought at big faceless chain stores.

Well, "real" is "real". Either it's the "real thing" or it's a digital emulation.

I see your point, but how "real" is the MTS stuff? Sure, it has tubes and circuit boards and such, so those are physical things - but modelers have real components, also... And the MTS stuff is a tube modeler of the "real" amps. Seems like some gray area here that I'm surprised more of the MTS users aren't residing in. I recall reading a thread recently on this very forum about how closely the MTS stuff replicates the "real" amps, with some users even claiming the MTS stuff sounds better than the "real" thing.

Mike has already stated his position on this. MTS is less than real. If it wasn't for a couple of the modders, he would have walked away from his RM100 years ago. The stock mods just aren't up to scratch and are basically unusuable.

There's nothing wrong with choosing an Axe FX or POD or whatever over a room full of tube amps. I know guys that are gigging in Vegas with nothing more than a direct box and a laptop. It's all good.

It's all good. Unless you actually buy an AxeFX. And then you're wrong.

For critical applications like master quality recording, there's only one effective choice and that's to record tube amps. Otherwise, you're compromising the integrity of your recordings and in the competitive world we live in, I find that to be unacceptable.

I can't really comment on this personally, because I use my rigs 100% for live applications right now, but I am fairly certain there are a fair number of Axe users that are creating some highly professional and polished material with their Axes. I've heard a fair number of the clips myself, and have been amazed by what people can do (yourself included, who I respect, fyi!) with both the Axe and traditional tube amps/mics/etc. I think all of this gear is just tools, and some people can use certain tools (or learn to use certain tools) to make professional-quality material in a way that makes sense to their process. [/i]

If you're playing live, all those "tone aficianados" in the crowd couldn't give a toss how close to authentic your tones are anyway.

Does it sound good? Good enough for dancing.
Does it fit the song/music? Sure!
Does it sound exactly like a Plexie or a Bassman or a SLO100 or a Dumble or a Larry? What the hell are they? Is that one of those 'stack' things?

 

[rhequiem]

I don't know if the OP will post any clips, and I haven't personally done any myself, as I don't have a recording rig (or recording experience, as I am presently a live player only), but I'll post a few here, just so you can check them out, as I'm guessing you don't visit the Fractal forums very often *chuckle*

Here's one that a Fractal forumite just posted up from a soundtrack for a movie that is coming out. He says all guitars (including the bass) was recorded through the Axe. I guess they used a poweramp and cab, but I've heard many others direct that sound pretty incredible, too.

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-f...vie-brutal-finished-axefx2-hybrid-set-up.html

I'd also recommend checking out Mark Day's videos. He does pretty much everything direct, and makes some amazing videos. He does lean towards high-gain hairy stuff, so be warned hehe Here's his video for Ozzy's "Flying High Again"

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-f...eo-mark-day-fatter-strings-skinnier-dude.html

Here's Mark Day's cover of Def Leppard's "Foolin'"

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-f...ds-foolin-guitar-cover-axefx-ii-mark-day.html

Here's a clip from a neighbor of yours (and professional musician, also) Pete Thorn playing a song off his latest album with the Axe FX II. Recorded direct. Sounds pretty incredible, IMHO.

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-fx-ii-discussion/42830-pete-thorn-plays-homage-axe-fx-2-a.html

There are literally hundreds of pages of recordings there for perusing, if one has the desire. Calling it a joke is, well, a joke, in my opinion /shrug

 

[crankyrayhanky]

IME a lot of techs give out bad info
Regardless, the Axe FX celebration is likely to be received better in other forums, congrats...though the fact that you never tried a modded module is a mistake in my book. Yes, the Fractal probably is better than the stock treadplate, no news flash there.

I think the tones are close, but the feel is still a long ways off

 

[Mike P]

To Mike P, I am going to be the bigger man and say that everything I wrote is 100% spot on from my end. I never meant for there to be harsh words here. I will say that you feel that tube amps are the way to go for you and thats cool. For me the Axe FX II works out better, please dont diss it, just accept that there are people out there who have differing opinions and theirs are as valid as yours.

I'm sorry, Axe FX is a compromise. Given the choice of a real Plexi or AC30 or Rectifier or Deizel or Bassman, etc., a guitarist will choose the tube every time.

I get that it's "easier" for you, but please, do not project YOUR ears to MY needs. That's complete and utter BS and it very unappreciated.

I have used myself, seen used and know of the use of the modeling gear you do not like on small to large budget recordings. It does come down to taste. I wont say that I have been involved in more "critical applications" than you have and I will not say that I havent, and really its not important which is more accurate. In the end I am happy & the people that pay me are happy with the results that I get sonically.

Why don't you link us to a track from one of these "large budget" productions so that we can judge for ourselves? To date, all I've heard from Axe FX is a bunch of nonsensical wanking or "clean" tones (that aren't that clean) with tons of reverb and delay.

When I do record with the Axe FX I will be sure to post some things here.

Can't wait.

Lastly you mention my signal chain, at the most "sterile" that I felt the MTS was sounding was running ESP Eclipse Deluxe (emgs) or LP Standard (burstbucke pros) through Mogami cables into RM4 to 4X12 loaded with V30s. As well as same set up with TC Electronic G Major or Boss GT Pro in Loop.

First off, I think EMG's are garbage. Toneless. Secondly, I'd dump the G Major or the GT Pro. And lastly, I HATE Vintage 30's, especially those made in China.

No offense but I don't think you understand true "tone". True tone is a GREAT guitar plugged into a GREAT amp. That's it. Unless you're using effects as "soundscapes", they muddy up the signal and alter the tone.

IMO, true guitar tone comes from a properly setup guitar and a great tube amp. AC/DC. Van Halen II. Mark Tremonti w/Alter Bridge. Slash. Those are GREAT tones that have NOTHING to do with G Majors or GT Pro's.

It's suddenly clear why we're at odds over "tone".

Fact of the matter is if you read back through alot of the threads I start the theme is usually needing more tone wise from my Randall stuff, no I never got any modded but that was because I didnt want to spend more on this line when I wasnt completely happy with the foundation of the tone I was getting. I am happy now with my tone, and I appreciate who ever is happy for me. As I am happy for every guitarist who is happy with their tone.

Again, this is a compromise. "Money", etc. Hey man, do whatever you want. No sweat off my back.

But just don't tell ME that I'd "like Axe FX, too". BS. B F'n S.

 

[Mike P]

Does it sound good? Good enough for dancing.
Does it fit the song/music? Sure!
Does it sound exactly like a Plexie or a Bassman or a SLO100 or a Dumble or a Larry? What the hell are they? Is that one of those 'stack' things?

It's all good, Dude. Like I said before, I hope you guys are all happy using whatever you want to use. Just please, don't automatically assume that I'd like it, too, just because you do (or someone else).

As for the rest, it was a joke. I should have put smiley faces.

 

[rhequiem]

Does it sound good? Good enough for dancing.
Does it fit the song/music? Sure!
Does it sound exactly like a Plexie or a Bassman or a SLO100 or a Dumble or a Larry? What the hell are they? Is that one of those 'stack' things?

It's all good, Dude. Like I said before, I hope you guys are all happy using whatever you want to use. Just please, don't automatically assume that I'd like it, too, just because you do (or someone else).

As for the rest, it was a joke. I should have put smiley faces.

I don't recall anyone saying they were assuming what they wanted you to use, dude - any more than anyone probably thought you were demanding that they use tube amps

I would personally *love love love* to have a mansion full of every amp/cab/effect known to man, or a cool million in gear even (I'm not greedy! lol), but for most of us humble joes, that's waaaaaaaaay beyond our reach.

As long as everyone's happy doing their thang, and no one else is gettin' their thangs all hurt, then I say we're good. Still, I do enjoy the banter, discussion, and debate. I should have been a lawyer, maybe hehe

 

[Mike P]

Here's one that a Fractal forumite just posted up from a soundtrack for a movie that is coming out. He says all guitars (including the bass) was recorded through the Axe. I guess they used a poweramp and cab, but I've heard many others direct that sound pretty incredible, too.

He wrote a song for the soundtrack, not the score. And no offense to you or him but it sounds like a bedroom demo.

I don't have time to address the other stuff because I have a session starting now but again, whatever makes you guys happy.

All that said, Axe FX is not for me at this time.

 

[Mike P]

I don't recall anyone saying they were assuming what they wanted you to use, dude - any more than anyone probably thought you were demanding that they use tube amps

And lastly about critical applications I'd have to take my cues from the pros who do this for a living and since you can't look into the gear used on major rock tours and not find something by Line 6, Eleven Rack (Avid), Amplitube, Guitar Rig and now more and more the Axe FX I'd say its good enough for me and I'd be willing to bet it you'd take the advice from Ty Tabor and listen with your ears and not your eyes, it'd be good enough for you too.