Its been a long journey with MTS...

[stm113]

My last $.02 to Mike P, if the whole you being a Dick thing on here today was about me saying you'd like it too then I apologize for assuming that you would like it. But if you want to be open minded maybe you should check some of your posts as you were doing alot of the same, I am man enough to admit when I am wrong, are you?


I wish you the best with what ever musically you do and I will continue to receive the best from what ever I do...cheers

 

[Mike P]

My last $.02 to Mike P, if the whole you being a Dick thing on here today was about me saying you'd like it too then I apologize for assuming that you would like it. But if you want to be open minded maybe you should check some of your posts as you were doing alot of the same, I am man enough to admit when I am wrong, are you?

I don't appreciate someone that I don't know telling me what I'd like and what I wouldn't. We aren't friends, we're not colleagues and we've never worked together. Quite frankly, I find it to be extremely rude.

Additionally, I'm not "wrong" and I'm not selling $15k worth of gear because some kid on the internet tells me I'm "wrong'.

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Here's my two cents.

MikeP is right about the Axe in one sense. Whenever you hear clips, they are always drenched in delay and verb. That's fair though because i also ran my recent clips through a Gmajor 2. Some coloration is nice. Too much coloration when used to cover up fizz is bad.

Secondly, if the only way to get a realistic tune out of these Axe units is to use them through a power amp and mic the speaker, why wouldn't I just mic a real tube amp?? The Mark Day clip was a little misleading because in the mix, you really don't hear the Axe that well.

I'm not sold on them yet but i'm sure there are people in the music industry that love this unit. I mean think of a rheanna song or LAdy Gaga tune. I'm sure they could give a **** about how authentic it sounds.

 

[Mike P]

I'm not sold on them yet but i'm sure there are people in the music industry that love this unit. I mean think of a rheanna song or LAdy Gaga tune. I'm sure they could give a s*&t about how authentic it sounds.

With all due respect, that's a different topic altogether.

Using amps sims in a creative fashion? I'm all good with that, as that is using tools creatively to push boundaries. I use effects from Guitar Rig 4 all the time, whether it's vocals, drums, strings, etc. That's a beautiful thing.

But to unequivocally state that Axe FX can replace vintage and modern tube amps in every Master Quality production? That's pure and utter nonsense.

 

[VitaminG]

Secondly, if the only way to get a realistic tune out of these Axe units is to use them through a power amp and mic the speaker, why wouldn't I just mic a real tube amp?? The Mark Day clip was a little misleading because in the mix, you really don't hear the Axe that well.

I've heard realistic clips, not drenched in fx, that sound great direct. No power amp. The power amp can also be emulated, and speaker impulses to save you mic'ing up. So that's not necessarily the only way to get a good sound out of them.

But then, if you want to have a plethora of amps in a box and feel you require a power amp to give it that tube juice, you might only need one tube power amp. That's still a lot cheaper option than needing 50 complete tube amps to get all those sounds

 

[rhequiem]

Ah, I didn't see where the OP said "it should be good enough for you". Yeah, that's out of line, I think, and probably what started the whole pissing match.

I guess my ear is just different than those who hear wild differences between Axe clips and tube amp clips. When I listen to some of the clips (even the ones I posted), they sound as good as any recorded songs I've ever heard /shrug

Kapo, there are *plenty* of recordings that people have posted on the Fractal forums (Mark Day included, though he freely admits that *he* likes verb and delay. He will often post the same recording without those effects so those who want to hear that approach can) that are just amp + cab (no effects), that you can listen to for that quality if you'd like to check that out. I just hand-picked a few, mostly random, from some that I saw when I skimmed through the forums looking for a few clips for Mr. Plas. Anyone who is curious enough to do a simple search or visit the Fractal forums will find a wealth of both information and clips from all levels of musicians to satisfy their curiosity.

Just to clarify, I'm not really on any "side" here. I own and appreciate both the Axe FX II *and* tube rigs. I value things in both approaches, even though (TO ME) the Axe does pretty much anything any tube amp I've ever played through has done, sound-wise. I'm just a gigging musician as a hobby, so I tend to trust some of the highly-qualified and/or distinguished folk who use some of the gear I've purchased.

 

[Mike P]

Ah, I didn't see where the OP said "it should be good enough for you". Yeah, that's out of line, I think, and probably what started the whole pissing match.

I guess my ear is just different than those who hear wild differences between Axe clips and tube amp clips. When I listen to some of the clips (even the ones I posted), they sound as good as any recorded songs I've ever heard /shrug

As said before, it's all good between you and me. Your requirements are different than mine. It's just like any profession, whether it's construction or computer programming. Tools for weekend warriors are different than those who work 40+ hours a week.

Kapo, there are *plenty* of recordings that people have posted on the Fractal forums (Mark Day included, though he freely admits that *he* likes verb and delay. He will often post the same recording without those effects so those who want to hear that approach can) that are just amp + cab (no effects), that you can listen to for that quality if you'd like to check that out. I just hand-picked a few, mostly random, from some that I saw when I skimmed through the forums looking for a few clips for Mr. Plas. Anyone who is curious enough to do a simple search or visit the Fractal forums will find a wealth of both information and clips from all levels of musicians to satisfy their curiosity..

To me, all of those clips sounded "Bedroom" quality. Harsh in the upper mids and highs with fake sounding effects. That said, my requirements are different than yours and probably 99.99% of all people in the world. I'm expected to provide amazingly produced work, not emulations.

While it's not impossible to make emulations sound passable, that's not my job. I can absolutely guarantee that my livelihood would suffer if I dumped my preamps, mics and tube amps for Fractal or any other emulation software.

Like most people in this forum, I have a family and a mortgage. I'm not going to jeopardize my income or my ability to support my family because someone on the internets told me that Axe FX II was the greatest thing ever.

No offense intended.

 

[rhequiem]

Yeah, I *totally* understand that, dude. You're a pro, and I'm just a music lover who likes going out and getting rowdy and having fun playing music live hehe. I totally respect what you're doing (hell, I would have loved to have gone a similar route if my life had taken a different turn a few years back), and I think the clips you've shared here sound phenomenal. I imagine you are definitely the outlier in the music market - someone who *needs* the absolute best quality, most genuine tone. I'm impressed that you're making it happen with MTS stuff! Hats off to you, man

 

[metareal]

I am surprised with just how heated this conversation has gotten!!
Especially since everybody is stating: "each to their own".

I am a MTS user and a valve amp user in general (Diezel, Marshall and Mesa) and I dont own a Fractal, even though I would definitely like to try one out for myself.

What surprises me is that "Mike P" is talking about "ABSOLUTE quality" as if tone is an objective thing! I have never known a more subjective concept than tone and to say that tools like the AXE FX do not work for professional quality productions is just plain silly, considering how many top artists are using it (John Petrucci, Steve Vai, Periphery, Peter Thorn, and the list goes on and on...).

You say that you need to create top quality audio productions, and therefore you need top quality valve amps, however what I hear on your website, to me, is not superior to Peter Thorn's album sound!! I am impressed with the quality of the clips I hear on the Fractal forum and to me they DONT sound bedroom quality at all!

Different people will always choose different tools for the job, but let's not kid ourselves and start talking about absolute tone and objective differences in tone PERCEPTION!

Cheers,
Ed.

 

[JD]

I don't know anything about recording, but I do know it's hard to replace a tube amp live. I've been on both sides of the fence and always end up back with the tubes. Drums are the same way...Digital drums don't even begin to compare to an acoustic set when playing live.

 

[crankyrayhanky]

Tone is in your fingers and soul. This is what I've been rockin' since 1984. I declare that this is good enough for me, it's good enough for all of you!

Your mileage will NOT vary

 

[drewiv]

Sad thing is, this probably is good enough for my sorry ***.

Tone is in your fingers and soul. This is what I've been rockin' since 1984. I declare that this is good enough for me, it's good enough for all of you!

Your mileage will NOT vary

 

[rhequiem]

I am surprised with just how heated this conversation has gotten!!
Especially since everybody is stating: "each to their own".

I am a MTS user and a valve amp user in general (Diezel, Marshall and Mesa) and I dont own a Fractal, even though I would definitely like to try one out for myself.

What surprises me is that "Mike P" is talking about "ABSOLUTE quality" as if tone is an objective thing! I have never known a more subjective concept than tone and to say that tools like the AXE FX do not work for professional quality productions is just plain silly, considering how many top artists are using it (John Petrucci, Steve Vai, Periphery, Peter Thorn, and the list goes on and on...).

You say that you need to create top quality audio productions, and therefore you need top quality valve amps, however what I hear on your website, to me, is not superior to Peter Thorn's album sound!! I am impressed with the quality of the clips I hear on the Fractal forum and to me they DONT sound bedroom quality at all!

Different people will always choose different tools for the job, but let's not kid ourselves and start talking about absolute tone and objective differences in tone PERCEPTION!

Cheers,
Ed.

Yeah, that's the thing. I've seen this same discussion (more or less) played out numerous times before. You will have people that are polarized on either side, and it just ends up in the tube camp claiming that "it sounds digital and fake" or "your ears are *****" or the modeler side saying "you're a tube purist" or "your old-fashioned and closed-minded". That's why, though I sometimes provide my opinions, I refuse to take a side. People get emotional about tone (duh), and that leads to some discussions getting heated. You just have to realize it's a personal thing, and no one is right or wrong about their preferences, and not take anything anybody says about your choices personally. That's their issue, not yours. I just know what I know from my experience, and that's that *I* don't hear much (if any) difference between clips recorded with the Axe and clips recorded with 100% valve.

I remember playing through my solid state Crate 2x10 combo with a DOD American Metal pedal back in the 80's and thinking how sweet it was Maybe I should get one of those Gorillas...? hehe

 

[rhequiem]

I don't know anything about recording, but I do know it's hard to replace a tube amp live. I've been on both sides of the fence and always end up back with the tubes. Drums are the same way...Digital drums don't even begin to compare to an acoustic set when playing live.

Most shows I've played (all, now that I think about it), the guitars (as well as the drums) were mic'd up. IMO, that pretty drastically changes the nature of the who tube feel, as far as the rawness and attack of the on-stage tube amp go. I think that's why many people (myself included) have chose to use a modeler live. The setup/breakdown is super-quick, and you get a 100% consistent tone (as far as it leaving the PA [which we bring] and not counting room acoustics).

Again, though, it's all personal preference. I've heard some guitarists like hearing their amp on stage, but that was a fairly uncommon occurrence for me, as my cab was typically pointed in some odd direction due to the stage layout. That's why I'm building up a small MTS rig based on an RM22 and a vertical 2x12, so I can actually try it out at gigs where I might be able to take advantage of that

 

[Hamner1]

Sad thing is, this probably is good enough for my sorry ***.

Tone is in your fingers and soul. This is what I've been rockin' since 1984. I declare that this is good enough for me, it's good enough for all of you!

Your mileage will NOT vary

:lol: :lol: It certainly fits my quality of playing.

As far as the debate goes, I have yet to be wowed by digital modelers. I have yet to even see an Axe unit in person. I'm sure it is a quality piece of gear. I'll give a listen to the clips of it, but unlike Mike, I'm sure my crappy computer monitor speakers will give a very different picture than if it was played through a treated monitoring room or in most of our situations a quality stereo setup. Usually what I am listening for; is it ice picky, is it too boomy, or did someone decide the guitar is not a midrange instrument & kill all of the mids.

Live I think any quality modeler will do a passable job for the gig. As long as the bass, mids, & highs are balanced well & the "preamp gain" level is where it should be then all is probably good. Which brings up an annoyance from my youth. (Insert Rant)Salesman & musicians of the time always preached that if you are doing covers you have to sound like the record & in order to do that you need (insert product here). WTF. I have heard a number of covers done live & on record. And to be honest if the band recording the cover would have sounded like the original, I would have been pissed. If I wanted Janes Addiction to sound like the Stones, I would have just played the Stones album. If I wanted Social Distortion to sound like the Stones, Hank Williams or Johnny Cash I would have just played those artists & etc. Rant Complete

 

[Mike P]

I am surprised with just how heated this conversation has gotten!!
Especially since everybody is stating: "each to their own".

I have stated repeatedly that people can use whatever they choose but at this point in time, Axe FX II is NOT for me.

What surprises me is that "Mike P" is talking about "ABSOLUTE quality" as if tone is an objective thing! I have never known a more subjective concept than tone and to say that tools like the AXE FX do not work for professional quality productions is just plain silly, considering how many top artists are using it (John Petrucci, Steve Vai, Periphery, Peter Thorn, and the list goes on and on...).

This is laughable. "Top Artists"? Who, outside of guitar aficionados know who Petrucci and Vai are, let alone, Pete Thorn? These guys endorse products to keep their visibility high because there isn't much of a market for their music. They earn money for their endorsements, period, and get advertising for their projects as well.

You say that you need to create top quality audio productions, and therefore you need top quality valve amps, however what I hear on your website, to me, is not superior to Peter Thorn's album sound!!

And thanks for listening to two clips out of more than 200 that are currently airing on TV. I'm sure your computer speakers served you well in your determination. But to each his own.

I am impressed with the quality of the clips I hear on the Fractal forum and to me they DONT sound bedroom quality at all!

Good for you. What, exactly, is your monitoring system? Are you a music supervisor for a television program or multiple programs? An MS for film projects? What, exactly, do you do for a living?

Different people will always choose different tools for the job, but let's not kid ourselves and start talking about absolute tone and objective differences in tone PERCEPTION!

When Michael Wagener, Andy Johns, Mike Fraser, Mike Shipley, Ross Hogarth, Terry Manning and other Grammy-winning producers start endorsing Axe FX over real tube amps, cabinets, preamps and microphones, I'll revisit Axe FX.

But until then, I'll be just like the other dinosaurs and use real tube amps, mic preamps and microphones for my productions. And I certainly wouldn't even consider investing in a product that uses decades old Sharc chips.

 

[alowerdeep]

:shock: :wink:

 

[alowerdeep]

"While it's not impossible to make emulations sound passable, that's not my job."

Arent you doing this(making emulations sound "passable") by using a SG Mk22 or Sg Diablo?I did read that you felt like the Diablo was dead on with the first 500 rect and the Mk22 in regard to the Marshall JMP.....these are emulations as well.....same conecpt as the Axe processors,just a different presentation...tubes,which some see as outdated.....I prefer tubes as well...but some may or probably think the Axe stuff sounds more like a real recto than a Diablo or a Jmp(if there is a settin gon axe) than the Mk22......just saying....but I understand your positon if you dont wanna use it....but they are both based on the same idea of tone emulation....

 

[Mike P]

"While it's not impossible to make emulations sound passable, that's not my job."

Arent you doing this(making emulations sound "passable") by using a SG Mk22 or Sg Diablo?I did read that you felt like the Diablo was dead on with the first 500 rect and the Mk22 in regard to the Marshall JMP.....these are emulations as well.....same conecpt as the Axe processors,just a different presentation...tubes,which some see as outdated.....I prefer tubes as well...but some may or probably think the Axe stuff sounds more like a real recto than a Diablo or a Jmp(if there is a settin gon axe) than the Mk22......just saying....but I understand your positon if you dont wanna use it....but they are both based on the same idea of tone emulation....

Cloning an amp using the same capacitor, resistor, bright cap values etc. is far different than using 1's & 0's.

Plus, with a unit like Axe FX, you're losing out on the choice of microphone(s) and hardware preamps. It's a compromise at best and not one I'm willing to make at this time.

 

[Mike P]

but some may or probably think the Axe stuff sounds more like a real recto than a Diablo or a Jmp(if there is a settin gon axe) than the Mk22......just saying....

If "someone" thinks that, then they obviously don't have any experience, especially long term experience, with the amp that's being digitally modeled. Quite honestly, that's half the problem: 90% or more of the people who claim that Axe FX is great have never owned or spent time playing through the analog amplifiers that are being emulated. They just think "Hey, this sounds awesome and even better than XXX" without any prior experience.

In full disclosure, I'm not against all digital emulation. I use the Waves SSL Channel E & G channel, the Waves Neve 1081 EQ and Waves CLA compressors, which model the Blue & Black 1176, the LA2A and the LA3A, nearly every project, whether it's rock, R&B or orchestral. Those are compromises I'm willing to make because I don't have the space for a 48 channel SSL console, nor do I want the heat and energy bill associated with additional racks of tube and solid state gear (I currently have 40 spaces filled - I'd prefer to leave it at that). Plus, I think they sound phenomenal, unlike any guitar amp emulation I've heard to date.