MTS or Axe-FX

[chameleon2112]

Hey Shred, you gig with the Axe-Fx? I Know you live near Fresno, would not mind hearing it in a live situation.

 

[danielodland]

AxeFX is great idea. We waiting for this several years. Better to have in some stompbox , but IR has high HW requirements so then in rack. Super is that you can load your own impulses and huge variety of sounds.
But biggest problem of AxeFX for my ears is higain (especially chuggy chug things) there you can really hear simulation Still missing "rough tube mids", imho basic problem of every simulation. In A/B comparison with real tube amp AxeFX will loose.

No good MIDS = No good guitar sound.
I know that lovers of "modern" sound disagree, but this is their fight

I disagree =) I think it's a matter of tweaking. I don't think anyone can hear the difference when the preset is tweaked properly. Of course, if it's NOT tweaked properly, the digitalness can shine through a bit..but the thing is, it sounds so perfect, you'd need a really good engineer micing and recording the "real" signal in order to have a good comparison. But when heard in a mix, I dont think anyone can really hear the difference.

 

[crankyrayhanky]

Isn't that the mantra of every digital player- "I just need to spend some time tweaking it" ...seems to be an illusion...my tube amps don't need tweaking, plug in and play

Yes, you could hide it in a mix- it can even sound good for some genres, but I think hyenik's opinion is dead on...prove me wrong and direct me to some clips of hi gain and also edgy blues that work well- and skip all the dealy/flanger, that stuff sounds great, but I'd like to hear great base tone before shelling out big $

 

[shred-o-holic]

Hey Shred, you gig with the Axe-Fx? I Know you live near Fresno, would not mind hearing it in a live situation.

Not currently........I quit my band IQ Zero about 2 years ago.....we were playing at the Crossroads on Cedar/Shields alot......I would love to get something going again......the wifie got tired with me gone all the time playing.... :roll: :lol:

 

[shred-o-holic]

Yes, you could hide it in a mix- it can even sound good for some genres, but I think hyenik's opinion is dead on...prove me wrong and direct me to some clips of hi gain and also edgy blues that work well- and skip all the dealy/flanger, that stuff sounds great, but I'd like to hear great base tone before shelling out big $

Ray-

There are tons of clips and vids out there that sound killer in multiple styles with the axe-fx.......You Tube for example.....the thing for me at least is not only the tones.....but also the feel......clarity BIG TIME......

 

[jlbaxe]

Isn't that the mantra of every digital player- "I just need to spend some time tweaking it" ...seems to be an illusion...my tube amps don't need tweaking, plug in and play

Yes, you could hide it in a mix- it can even sound good for some genres, but I think hyenik's opinion is dead on...prove me wrong and direct me to some clips of hi gain and also edgy blues that work well- and skip all the dealy/flanger, that stuff sounds great, but I'd like to hear great base tone before shelling out big $

+1000000 8)

 

[danielodland]

Isn't that the mantra of every digital player- "I just need to spend some time tweaking it" ...seems to be an illusion...my tube amps don't need tweaking, plug in and play

Hehe yes, I guess there's a lot of that going on, excuses from people who don't know how to work the gear they just bought. And the BS about tube amps not needing tweaking; come on, you don't mean that do you? Some very high end amps sound pretty descent with everything at noon and no real tweaking, but most amps, tube or SS needs some time for you to get to know the amp, EQ's and all that. Most often the real good tones take a long time to find.
Same with digital, but because the amp models in the AFX is 1000 times more flexible than any tube amp, there is a lot of room for bad settings and judgement. It's easy to get lost in all the parameters.

Yes, your tube amp probably sounds like a tube amp righ out of the box, but very very few amps I've tried sounded GOOD right out of the box. The fact that it has tubes, doesn't make it sound good by itself. I'm sure you've spent a lot of time finding sounds. It's not unusual spending a day finding the right guitar sound (for a big mainstream band that can afford the studio time...).

Yes, you could hide it in a mix- it can even sound good for some genres, but I think hyenik's opinion is dead on...prove me wrong and direct me to some clips of hi gain and also edgy blues that work well- and skip all the dealy/flanger, that stuff sounds great, but I'd like to hear great base tone before shelling out big $

Sorry, don't really have any links for you. If you're interested, I'm sure you can find some though. The Fractal forum has a lot of great pieces of music created with the AFX. My best advice is to borrow one from someone for a few weeks. Get to know it, and I'm very sure that if you give it a fair try, you'll be positively surprised. You're absolutely right in that you should be convinced before purchase though.

 

[audioholic]

Isn't that the mantra of every digital player- "I just need to spend some time tweaking it" ...seems to be an illusion...my tube amps don't need tweaking, plug in and play

Yes, you could hide it in a mix- it can even sound good for some genres, but I think hyenik's opinion is dead on...prove me wrong and direct me to some clips of hi gain and also edgy blues that work well- and skip all the dealy/flanger, that stuff sounds great, but I'd like to hear great base tone before shelling out big $

disagree. Tube amps need swap in tubes to dial in the sound we want. We mod our modules, we spend lots of money in trial and error with tubes. Tubes amps are usually not plug and play, they require as much tweaking at times, which can get very expensive. Some people who own high dollar amps and been around for quite a bit are really quite happy with thier axe fx rig, so I think its possible to really do great things with it. The few times I used my axe fx into a power amp, I thought it sounded killer.

 

[danielodland]

Yes, you could hide it in a mix- it can even sound good for some genres, but I think hyenik's opinion is dead on...

"Hide it in a mix"? I meant it goes really well in a mix, and by mix, I don't mean EQing it and compressing it to hell and back again. I just mean it sounds good in a band, many modelers don't.

 

[danielodland]

disagree. Tube amps need swap in tubes to dial in the sound we want. We mod our modules, we spend lots of money in trial and error with tubes. Tubes amps are usually not plug and play, they require as much tweaking at times, which can get very expensive.

Didn't even think about that..

 

[hyenik]

Tube amps need swap in tubes to dial in the sound we want.

Neverending tube swapping is same toy-playing like neverending digital tweeking for me
I apreciated idea of AxeFX, flexibility etc. IR method is big step forward, but still not on same level with good tube sound. This mids, which I called rough-tube-mids, simply missing in every simulation what I heard. Especially in samples on Fractal Audio site.

I remember time when Line6 appeared very good. And this was absolutely same, POD lovers made jokes about old-fashioned vintage clowns......and where is this revolution now? AxeFX is higher level, because cab simulation in Line6 is genuine tragedy (price for low HW requirements). And I believe that exist many examples with POD which nobody recognized. (I made some blind tests for friends too )
I only say that AxeFX is still not equal substitute and this takes some more time. But before few years I didn?t believe, that drums can be sampled on highest level, and this situation is already here. So I believe that for guitar simulaton will be be the same (will be).
And of course I don?t want to advise somebody what he must play......
Only for rules of discusions, another opinion is here, and everybody can (must) make his own decision.

PS: I use Line6 almost everyday..... for demos.
CD?s I record through Randall MTS now.

 

[hyenik]

All what we talking here, is only TALKING.
But important are results (sound & music).

 

[crankyrayhanky]

And the BS about tube amps not needing tweaking; come on, you don't mean that do you?

Yes I do...every line6 player I know apologizes for their tone, telling me they "just need to spend a night dialing in tones", i.e 300 channels to save but not 1 basic good tone- lots of fluff and special fx

Sure, I modify all my modules, but on day1 I had a stock Deluxe, SL+, and Treadplate and I had nothing but good tone- now I just seek a better tone every day, much different than crap seeking quality.

Same thing with most mid level tube amps I play, it takes all of about 30 seconds to get a usable tone to jam....

I am unfairly lumping Fractal in with line6, but I am trying to like this piece- I would love to add the fx, the cab sims for nighttime silent recording....but other than the clean tones, the hard rock tones sound awful and the bluesy edge I haven't heard

I tried plugging my direct out from my rm20 into my board last night, into headphones- yuck!! Would the Fractal cab sims somehow fix this? Is that how Pete does it?

 

[danielodland]

I agree about the samples in the Fractal site. On the forum, however, there are some good clips.

Wish I could afford having a AFX in the rack along with my RM4 (which is on its way soon), would be great being able to use the cab sims with the MTS modules.

 

[danielodland]

I tried plugging my direct out from my rm20 into my board last night, into headphones- yuck!! Would the Fractal cab sims somehow fix this? Is that how Pete does it?

That's bound to sound bad..cabs are an important part of the signal chain, as are poweramps. Yes, a cab sim would help getting a better tone when going direct with a pre.



Anyway, as you said, Line6 amp sims are not in the same league as Fractal sims. That's the whole reason for the Fractal hype, it's suddenly at a professional sounding level. That's never happened before with guitar tones, and thats why people are excited. Again, I don't agree with you, which is totally cool, but I just think if you're interested in this kind of solution (modeling), you should really find a way to try out the AxeFX yourself, dont rely on clips. And remember, you can't compare with playing a tube amp in the room, you must compare with recorded material, or through a PA. Comparing a AFX through 5" mackies in the studio with a roaring tube head with a412 cab in the room is not a fair comparison. However, micing the tubeamp properly and creating a preset with the same setup in the AFX, and I don't think you'd be able to hear the difference.


Just a quick thing about the "just need to tweak it" syndrome, I think this occurs mainly with these kinds of products because there are so many variables. What to connect the equipment to, understanding how to tweak digital VS analog and so on, it's a different ballgame. With the AFX, it's like you get access to all kinds of tweaks and modding possibilities that most people wouldnt have access to (or skills to) do on a tube amp. So, as I said, it's quite possible to get lost and tweak a preset to death if you're not competent/somewhat experienced.

 

[audioholic]

imo

to get the best out of the axe fx live, you need to run it as if it was a preamp - going into poweramp cab. This really sounds quite good. Going direct live, no matter what the solution, is always a compromise.

There have been several clips and tests of people trying to pick out the axe fx, and alot of the times, either they can't find it over a tube amp, or they admit it sounds pretty good, when setup correctly.

you can set up a tube amp incorrectly as well and get many bad sounds out of a tube amp, or any amp for that matter. just because something is tube does not mean it will sound good, I have played, owned several tube amps that either did not stay, or I was always trying to change something, tubes, speakers, etc etc to find that sound

 

[danielodland]

imo

to get the best out of the axe fx live, you need to run it as if it was a preamp - going into poweramp cab. This really sounds quite good. Going direct live, no matter what the solution, is always a compromise.

Well, yeah. But IMO, when you're in an amateur band without your own soundguy and playing crappy venues, micing a cab is probably even more of a compromise soundwise. It'll feel more like "traditional" guitar sound for you on stage, but the audience would probably be better off with FRFR. When going FRFR, the soundguy must be an idiot to screw up the sound. When going FRFR, your sound is always as good as the PA will permit. IF you have made good presets.

Short version: I'd say, for most bands, micing a cab is just as big a compromise as going direct. It's almost always a compromise.

 

[shred-o-holic]

Yeah.........I used to have all these opinions about the thing until I actually played one.... :roll: :lol:

And don't even think about relating it to Line 6......I should know my Vetta 2 is for sale...... :lol: :lol:

 

[audioholic]

imo

to get the best out of the axe fx live, you need to run it as if it was a preamp - going into poweramp cab. This really sounds quite good. Going direct live, no matter what the solution, is always a compromise.

Well, yeah. But IMO, when you're in an amateur band without your own soundguy and playing crappy venues, micing a cab is probably even more of a compromise soundwise. It'll feel more like "traditional" guitar sound for you on stage, but the audience would probably be better off with FRFR. When going FRFR, the soundguy must be an idiot to screw up the sound. When going FRFR, your sound is always as good as the PA will permit. IF you have made good presets.

Short version: I'd say, for most bands, micing a cab is just as big a compromise as going direct. It's almost always a compromise.

right but When most people say they don't think the Axe FX sounds and feels like a real amp, well in that case, they need to compare apples to apples and run it like a pre you know, pushing a cab and air. only then can you make the correct comparison. But going direct is a good way to get a decent sound, though any direct solution for me, when monitoring only the direct, is gonna feel a little different if you are used to a cab pushing air..

 

[danielodland]

imo

to get the best out of the axe fx live, you need to run it as if it was a preamp - going into poweramp cab. This really sounds quite good. Going direct live, no matter what the solution, is always a compromise.

Well, yeah. But IMO, when you're in an amateur band without your own soundguy and playing crappy venues, micing a cab is probably even more of a compromise soundwise. It'll feel more like "traditional" guitar sound for you on stage, but the audience would probably be better off with FRFR. When going FRFR, the soundguy must be an idiot to screw up the sound. When going FRFR, your sound is always as good as the PA will permit. IF you have made good presets.

Short version: I'd say, for most bands, micing a cab is just as big a compromise as going direct. It's almost always a compromise.

right but When most people say they don't think the Axe FX sounds and feels like a real amp, well in that case, they need to compare apples to apples and run it like a pre you know, pushing a cab and air. only then can you make the correct comparison. But going direct is a good way to get a decent sound, though any direct solution for me, when monitoring only the direct, is gonna feel a little different if you are used to a cab pushing air..

yeah thats what I meant when saying using a cab will feel more traditional in a way, but FRFR is cool when you're used to it. But in many cases, especially if you're using AFX with other pre's like I want to, you're better off using a cab. And, like you said, thats the fair way to compare if you're gonna compare "in the room". Apples to apples.