MTS shortcomings; technical Aspects and Can it be done

[JeffHenneman]

Please stick with me on this. Its long and some what repetitive.
I know this topic is old but want to hear a more technical aspect of this conversation. I would like to hear from the more educated amp gurus about this.
I love the MTS idea and for recording I love it, but for playing thru the mts rigs it always seems a little off. I know there has been many conversations on this topic but I don't think I have seen any conversation about the eq response on the modules. To me they don't react like a regular amps eq. To me they seem very limited. If a regular amp is 1-10, mts modules seem like they go from 1-6.
Why is that? is it a design "flaw" or was it supposed to be that way? Can anything be done to change that or would it need to be completely redesigned from the ground up?
I honestly did not like the salvation presence and resonance board. It made the sound kinda boxy, but the stock board sounded good until you cranked the amp up. The rm100 amps are the first tube amps I have ever owned that lost something when you cranked it high. Most amps excel when pushed but not the rm100s. I have owned many amps, in fact I have played almost every amp that is out there and the rm100 was just weird when it came to playing it in person. It still sounded good but when playing side to side with some of my amps they were different.
I played my modules in my m4 thru the loop of some of my amps to use there power amp and they sounded really good. They were on point with the amps preamp section until you tweaked them to some extreme settings then they just seemed bland. Like the sound came apart some how.
Is that something that can be "fixed" in the way the amps design right now, or is that impossible cause of its design?
When in the studio they are awesome, but I am using high pass filters and compressors. When in person they lack that punch and push. Is that cause the power section? or is it the way the preamp interfaces with the power section that is at fault?
I hope what I am saying makes sense, feel free to ask questions.

 

[MarcoR]

This topic has been brought up many times; therefore it must be an actual phenomenon.

I can?t speak to the technical reasoning on whether it has to do with the interaction of the preamp section with the power section compared to traditional amps. Even with traditional amps, there was always a noted difference between an amp head verses a rack set up (preamp and separate power amp).

I?ve been MTSing it for about 9 years now and playing for 35 years and have had many many amps. My initial impression when I got my first MOD50 and compared it to the TSL100 I had at the time was that the MOD50 sounded MUCH better at lower volumes and had a complexity in the tone with certain modules (while other might have seemed flat).

Now, the TSL was never considered one of Marshall better amps, but I can tell you mine sound very very good when in a loud band setting. I upgraded it to Mercury Magnetics transformers and choke and for me the difference was obvious; it went from sounding like a cheap Marshall wannabe to an expensive high end boutique amp.

At home jamming and at band practices (not ridiculously loud), the MOD50 had a more pleasing tone and everyone noticed it (even my wife). Playing live with it took some adjustment as it didn?t seem to cut the way my Marshall did. Wow that sounds familiar?

So what ?s happening EQ wise between the two? Well, the Marshall was thin at lower volumes where the MOD50 was warm and complex. At louder volumes, the MOD50 got wooly and blurry where the Marshall was cutting and thick.

Okay... so is this a design flow? Maybe, but I think they?re just different.

So what is this phenomenon?

Enter the Fletcher-Munson Curve or equal-loudness contours; as you get louder frequencies become compressed (squashed) to the human ear. The response to very loud sounds is much "flatter" or more uniform than the response to very soft sounds.

Without getting to deep into that topic, in regards to the Fletcher-Munson Curve and how it relates to us guitar players, the simple rule to remember is: As you get louder, you?re going to need to reduce the bass response in your tone; that warm sound you get in your bedroom will be mud in a band mix. That might seem counterintuitive being the result is flatter when louder but what?s happening is the good tones are being overpowered by the less desirable ones. Remember guitar is a midrange instrument.

Basically, with these amps, it?s an EQ thing and you could be ruining your sound with the presence and density controls if you?re not using them to tailor to the environment and level you?re playing in.

But here?s the ?gotcha?? The modules, especially the dual modules, have very little control on the bass pot (YMMV). So if you?re applying this theory you may find you need to completely turn down the density control but it?s still not enough and then the bass pot on the module is doing little to nothing to get you where you need to be. If that?s the case, you may want to look at a different speaker choice.

Now for you, you might be thinking, ?I know how to EQ my amp?. Well, I believe you. Still, we all get into habits and as we all know and hear all the time, ?EQ with your ears not your eyes? bla, bla? We still forget especially in the heat of the moment at a gig or when that opportunity arises that you can do a side to side comparison with a ?real? amp.

So, it might not be perfect, it is a compromise that comes down to do I want an amp that does one thing perfectly or do I want one that does many things very good?

I will say when this topic comes up; I know what people are observing as I have as well. My current setup with the M4 and VHT2502 has served me very well and is the most flexible in a wide range of volumes compared to my MOD50, RM50, M4/RM4 with an RT2/50. I believe this comes down to the VHT2502 having the most flexible EQ options and voicings out of the other power sections I've tried.

This supports what JeffHenneman is saying in regards to playing his M4 in the loops of his other amps and also the fact that extreme settings didn?t sound right. I?m guessing the bass pot wasn?t doing much and depending on the module, the interaction between the other pots may have yielded undesirable results. That interaction, in some cases is by design and might be reason for not trying to replicate a circuit exactly. But what do I know?

Sorry for the long post!
:wink:

 

[MarcoR]

Oh yeah.. I didn?t even talk about all the gain stages and that other famous topic regarding where you should set the master volume on the module? Lots of variables indeed! And then there?s those bloody loops!!! :roll: :lol:

 

[mfgobbi]

Why not make a quality video or audio and point out exactly what you're hearing when you're hearing it. If it's a human ear problem then the microphone won't hear it. If it's an amp shortcoming then the recording will tell us.

I can think of lots of reasons why the module will not sound exactly like the amp it tries to emulate, but whatever causes it, it is hard to describe in words... so, again, let's hear it.

 

[JeffHenneman]

Why not make a quality video or audio and point out exactly what you're hearing when you're hearing it. If it's a human ear problem then the microphone won't hear it. If it's an amp shortcoming then the recording will tell us.

I can think of lots of reasons why the module will not sound exactly like the amp it tries to emulate, but whatever causes it, it is hard to describe in words... so, again, let's hear it.

I wish I could but I only have an m4 going into my mesa 2:90 now. I have that straight loaded for a specific sound so it is intentionally one dimensional. I can get great recordings no problem, but it is more about the feel of the amp while I am sitting in front of it riffing away. My ears would tend to get fatigued easy and it seemed like I spent a lot of time tweaking rather than playing.
I brought the topic up from the aspect of the modules in a head, not a rack setup. I am not really thinking about comparing the actual sound of the mts compared to the real amp. I was inquiring more about the eq section of the modules.
I know it has been brought up many times but don't remember any specific thread about the eq section.
I don't post much on forums but I search and search for info, I just didn't find one that was specifically about the eq.
MarcoR bought up some good points, now that I think of it the mts line does seem to be very mid heavy. I have known that, but maybe that is what is throwing my ear off.

 

[Hernando04]

This may sound way overly simple compared to the previous posts, but every little bit helps. I've found that my MTS setup sounds better when the speakers are on the floor. I used to have my speakers elevated or tilted. I would have to play behind the speakers to get the sound I wanted. Now I just put them on the floor and play anywhere in the room.