Mud and lifeless

[nomad100]

So i've had my amp for say more than 6 months, I have a blackface, treadplate, and sl+ modules. Active EMG's and Passive EMG's on 2 les paul customs. I have one fadded SG with Active EMG's.

The amp with all 3 guitars seems pretty lifeless/stiff and muddy

I'm running threw a recto 2x12.
sometimes 6L6's sometimes KT77's sometimes a mix of both.

any suggestions, I'd like a little looser sound and airiier more mids.

 

[eyeball987]

I have had 2 RM50's and 2 RM100's. Both models reacted differently so let's start with the model that you have.

Next, "looser" and more "airy" mids sounds like EL34's to me. YMMV. I have used 6550's, 6L6's, and EL34's in all of mine.

Where is your master set and how loud have you been able to push it? Have you tried using a boost? There is a learning curve to these amps but not a 6 month curve.

Many users load their guitars with EMG's (The Hamster for example) but I have always found them stiff and lifeless personally. What amps have you used with those pickups and not had this problem? Also, I am assuming that you have V30's in the cab right?

 

[nomad100]

I'm more wondering if it's my cab, or my guitars. Every time i pick up an epiphone Zakk Wylde at Sweetwater and plug in, i get far better results. That's the guitar i usually use. I guess the guitars at the stores have 10's on them instead of 11's, idk

I had a nomad100HD i had modded and it was defiantly looser feeling. Not necessarily gave me the mids i wanted. I used a sonic stomp with that amp and i can't with the Rm100 due to the line level FX loop.

When i bought the amp i was playing a band and that band ended very soon after that. Since then i play at home and at most i can turn it up to around 10 oclock on the master.

Yes the 2x12 recto has v30's in it, maybe they are just not lively enough for me.

Could my bias be to high, i bias at the max the chart says.

 

[nomad100]

I also have pretty much all JJ pretubes,

 

[crankyrayhanky]

the older modules are muddier

Stock modules are interesting, but I would have bailed long ago- in fact I never would have gotten an mts if it wasn't for the pro mods. Grab a hi gainer and send it to the myriad of talented people we have and you will get a jaw dropping improvement

 

[Shinozoku]

Get a NOS 5751 and replace the PI tube with it. You'll thank me later

 

[nomad100]

I bought all my modules new when i bought the amp.

I might just try the NOS 5751

I did a little tinkering today and found that when i switched to 18v on my actives the stiffness was gone. I don't get the mud with the passive pickups as much.

 

[Shinozoku]

Night-and-day difference when I switched to a 5751 in the PI. Went from being okay, kinda stuffy sound where my modules sounded similar, to being brighter, crisp, and well defined. Got more clarity and grit from my high gain and more shimmer in my Blackface.

I plan on ultimately switching to Tung Sols in my amp and getting another 5751. Gonna pick up a couple of new power tube duos too (Tung Sol 5881 and EHX 6CA7)to try.

 

[nomad100]

So true both my high gain modules to the undercerning ear sound the same. Iv'e gotten used to being able to turn my volume down on my active pickup guitars without having it get muddy. I feel like my pickups aren't getting me the tone i want, even though some of my favorite guitarist use them.

 

[audiomidijace]

Setting the bias high will feel very stiff. You might try setting it on the lower side and see what you think. I think you'd enjoy the sounds of EL-34s better for the gain modules as well. Lately I've been in love with Electro-Harmonix tubes.
Try these:
http://thetubestore.com/ehxel34.html
If your 2X12 is "Closed back", you might see if you can remove the top panel in the back. Letting the cab breathe will also remove some stiffness.
EMG pickups will never give you an organic sound. Neither will super hot passive pickups. Try Duncan Alnico II or the new EVH pickups. Your amp will be much more responsive to dynamics.
Cheers,
Jace

 

[nomad100]

your absolutely right! I kept wondering why i liked the sound of amp better when i first turned it on. Well the KT77 take a while to reach there bais, i just found out. i left me DMM on it while i played and watched the bias creep up. it started around 36mv ish and slowly crept up to 38mv. I have it set to 37 after a good long warm up and it sounds bettter. Then i lowred my pickups a little that was the key, and why one guitar sounded better than the rest. 3/32 is to close to the strings for me, 4/32 sounds and feels a lot better.

I think your also right about el34, the KT77 fall between the 6l6 and el34's tone wise. Here when i get some money i'm going to order a set of el43 even if i don't like them i have an amp a friend gave me needing repaired that only takes them.

Your right about the high output pickups. I just tried the EMG actives because zakk wylde and Brad Noah use them. The 490r/t that were in my fadded sg had no sustain So they were to low of an output.

 

[eyeball987]

JJ pre's are dark and some say muddy. That could be part of the problem. I am also a big fan of the 5751 in the PI spot.

V30's shouldn't cause the issues you are describing. I had a Recto 2X12 along with a Tremoverb head it was far from muddy and lifeless. It was too bright for me actually.

 

[speedemon]

I was in your shoes in May;

+1 Shinozuko
+1 Eyeball (sorry to everyone who loves JJs)

You seem to have found your other issues that are not amp related.

Pickup height will also effect sustain, along with string gauge, nut, bridge and setup.

Have fun!

 

[Shinozoku]

Yup. EMGs sound best in a Les Paul, and running into an amp that is medium gain (JCM800's are NOT high gain beasts. That's why Zakk uses an Overdrive and EMGs).

If you want a pickup similar to EMGs check out:

DiMarzio D Activators. They're a bit bright, but they're amazing, especially for drop tunings.

BKP Painkillers: On the brighter side, but similar to an EMG in tone, but with passive life and response.

BKP Miracle Man: Similar to the Painkiller, and it will let you know your mistakes

BKP Aftermath: From what I've heard, this is the closest thing to an EMG that BKP makes. It's got more symmetrical windings than the other pickups for a tighter, more precise attack, and there is a crunchy low-midrange present in the tone that adds to its brutality. But from what I've heard, it REALLY rakes the natural tone of your guitar and supercharges it!

I was in your shoes in May;

+1 Shinozuko
+1 Eyeball (sorry to everyone who loves JJs)

You seem to have found your other issues that are not amp related.

Pickup height will also effect sustain, along with string gauge, nut, bridge and setup.

Have fun!

This is also the truth. Higher action and lower pickups equal more sustain, but lower gain. High gain pickups are meant to drive a low-gain amp harder into distortion. Once we got higher gain amps, the high gain pickups became merely a selling point. Amps today have enough gainto use a PAF in a death metal setting, but the use of high output pickups with a high gain amp has created a signature "sound" that we metalheads now go for. Too many people are scared to experiment

 

[nomad100]

why do active pickups have to be high output? There are benefits other than high output.

 

[audiomidijace]

Active pickups don't have to be high gain. EMG has a line of pickups and some are much hotter then others. Active pickups are very quiet and very consistent. I used to use a set of EMG 85/81s in every guitar that I had for just this reason. This allowed all of my guitars to sound the same. I had multiple guitars for different tunings and backups. I was always safe. This was back in the early 90's.
These days I'm just the opposite. I have zero active pickups and all my guitars have different pickups for different sounds. High output passive pickups just seem to muddy everything up. I get a much clearer high gain tone using my Gibson mid output pickups now.
Cheers,
Jace

 

[Shinozoku]

why do active pickups have to be high output? There are benefits other than high output.

Indeed there are. David Gilmour and Reb Beach will tell you that. But people primarily use them because of their supposed "high output". OF course, I won't go through explaining things to people who already know how an EMG works, but the sound IS fitting to heavy metal.

However, they can have issues sounding lively and full.

 

[Julia]

Unless you're able to really crank the amp hard and loud enough to where you start to lose your hearing, I'd swap out the speakers in the cabinet and replace them with Celestion G12H30s 55 Hz, or the 20W Greenbacks. You'll get cone breakup at far lower volumes, which will sound looser.

A speaker swap will have the greatest impact on your tone. You do not have to have the wattage on your speakers total up to the power of your amp. Just be smart about volume and don't crank it up full. And if you've got an RM100, run it at 50W with two tubes (pull the two outer) and if you've got an 8 ohm 212 cab plug it into the 4 ohm jack if you do that.

FWIW I hate Mesa Cabinets. They have this.... "unique" sound that I just can't describe. I think they sound horrible.

 

[nomad100]

what kind of unique sound? I've been thinking of trying a different cab and trying different speakers. I liked the emulated sound of both the speakers you suggested.

The last few days i've had 2 tubes pulled and set the amp to 4Ω. I built a -6db attenuator, so with 2 tubes i'm down to 12.5W. I do all my tone tweaking without the attenuator.

 

[DUlrich1227]

FWIW I hate Mesa Cabinets. They have this.... "unique" sound that I just can't describe. I think they sound horrible.

+1 on the mesa cab i just sold mine as it just didnt work with the variety of sounds out of my randall.. picked up a closed back 2 x 12 bogner... mids are much cleaner and nomore muddy bottom