Music Theory Section Back at it

[Dirtdog]

Just Putting out a feeler to see if anyone is interested in me starting a discussion on music theory with an emphasis on scales modes etc as it pertains to soloing. I know some on here do not need this but their might be some who are a bit fuzzy on this topic. I am not a know it all and don't claim to be but I know from taking lessons and theory classes that sometimes the stuff didn't gel. Let me know.

 

[SacredGroove]

I'd be interested in noodling around with whatever you got.

 

[Dirtdog]

Also if you could kind of give me some kind of point at where your all at theory wise would help me as well.

 

[Dirtdog]

There are seven modes that utilize the same notes as the major scale but start on different root notes. These are (1) Ionian (major), (2) Dorian, (3) Phrygian, (4) Lydian, (5) Mixolydian, (6) Aeolian (natural minor), and (7) Locrian.
When I was taking lessons my teacher said that all I had to do was start on a different note and I would have the modes. This did not gel with me so over time I came up with my own way and here it is.
Of the seven modes Three are Major sounding ( modes 1, 4, 5) and 4 are Minor sounding (6, 2, 3, 7). So instead of relating them to there relative major scale I relate them to their parallel scale (Major for Major sounding, Minor for Minor sounding). Today I will Talk about the Major sounding modes
The major scale has a formula of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 being that they are no alterations to it.
The Lydian mode has a formula of 1, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, 7 showing that it has an alteration on the forth note of the scale showing that is raised a half step.

The Mixolydian mode has a scale formula of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7 showing it has an alteration of the seventh note showing that it is lowered a half step.
Lets take guitar friendly G major who's notes are G, A, B, C, D, E, F#
going by the above formula for Lydian all we have to do to G major is raise the forth degree to C# so G Lydian is G, A, B, C#, D, E, F#
if the notes look familiar thats because its relative major scale is D major
but by using the parallel thinking we take the tonal center away from D major and put it on the 4th mode G Lydian.
Now going by the formula for the Mixolydian mode all we have to do to G major is lower its 7th note by a half step so G Mixolydian is G, A, B, C, D, E, F again these notes are familiar because the relative major scale to G Mixolydian is C major but again thinking parallely we take the tonal center away from C major and place emphasis on the 5th mode G mixolydian
Why think of it this way? By thinking of it this way all we have to do to our memorized major scale pattern (you should have this memorized by heart) is change the the forth note C to C# to get lydian and the 7th from F# to F to get Mixolydian. So instead of thinking you have to memorize a bunch of new things just think that all you do to get the major sounding modes is change one finger in the patern. or two working in two octaves and you can have this mode down in know time. This also takes the emphasis off the relative major scale and places it on the mode which is where it should be.
I'd advise to get to hear these modes you should just record yourself playing a static G major chord for a few minutes and play these modes back to back to appreciate how they change the mood. If you gotta use the relative scale to help do so but try to ween yourself off of it and relate it to its Parallel Major scale
next time we will work on the chords of each particular major mode. If you have questions feel free to pm me

 

[Dirtdog]

Today I am going to talk about the the major mode chord scales. Chord scales are nothing more than playing up the scale via the diatonic chords starting from the root of the mode and moving up the mode playing the chords shown.
The G Major (Ionian mode) triad chord scale has the following chord formula
1 maj, 2 min, 3 min, 4 maj, 5 maj, 6 min, and 7 dim
for those who don't know what a triad is it is a chord based on the root 3rd and 5th only.
The 7th chord scale for G major is
1 maj 7, 2 min 7, 3 min 7, 4 maj 7, 5 dom 7, 6 min 7, and 7 min 7b5
the 7th chord forms are based on the root, 3, 5, and 7

G Lydian triad chord scale is as follows
1 maj, 2 maj, 3 min, #4 dim, 5 maj, 6 min, and 7 min
and the 7th chord scale is as follows
1 maj 7, 2 dom 7, 3 min 7, #4 min 7b5, 5 maj 7, 6 min 7, and 7 min

G mixolydian triad chord scale is as follows
1 maj, 2 min, 3 dim, 4 major, 5 min, 6 min, and b7 maj
and the 7th chord scale is as follows
1 dom 7, 2 min 7, 3 min 7b5, 4 major 7, 5 minor 7, 6 minor 7, and b7 maj

Play these a few times to get each chord scale in your head.
Now why are we doing this. We are doing this to help our soloing and song writing chops

If you look at the relationship between each mode you will see a difference in the chord qualities between each mode. These differences are caused from the change of the one note that we discussed earlier in the modes like the #4 for lydian and the b7 for mixolydian. So to make the mode stand out you should play a chord progression that emphasizes these little changes
I am not discussing Ionian since this is just the major scale and we already know tons of major chord progressions

play a 1 maj, to b7 maj, to 4 maj to 1 maj to get a feel for mixolydian you can also just go between the 1 major and b7 major but the movement isn't as good

For lydian you can play a 1 major 7 to 7 minor 7 to 3 minor 7 to #4 min7b5 to 5 major 7 back to 1

try and come up with some more. Use your major scale chord progressions and try to change them to emphasize the other major sounding modes
Next time I will talk about a mode used in progressive rock and jazz alike the Lydian b7 mode
as always feel free to pm me if you have any questions

 

[GtrGeorge!]

I think that its easy to talk about this stuff..but VERY hard to digest it and use it.
I love my scales, my modes and my music..but for me..I think it USEFUL to see the modes as playing a major scale strating from a not other than the root. I say this because you may benefit from the tonal CONTEXT in which these come from.
Example, If I play a C major chord...I think its really instructive to play a Dorian mode from D to D (using the inervals used in a C major scale)..and listen to what that produces.
REALLY listen..like for weeks at a time to get what it does and doesnt do.
You can disagree with me (Im fine with it,If you do..) but I insist that interpreting modes in terms of major and minor short changes you from hearing BEYOND major and minor.
I appreacitte that that maybe you are suggesting your method as a way to get from hear to there..in which case..hey whatever floats your boat and gets you to think beyong Major and minor, good and bad, black and white. Duality can get boring.
GtrGeorge

 

[Dirtdog]

I think that its easy to talk about this stuff..but VERY hard to digest it and use it.
I love my scales, my modes and my music..but for me..I think it USEFUL to see the modes as playing a major scale strating from a not other than the root. I say this because you may benefit from the tonal CONTEXT in which these come from.
Example, If I play a C major chord...I think its really instructive to play a Dorian mode from D to D (using the inervals used in a C major scale)..and listen to what that produces.
REALLY listen..like for weeks at a time to get what it does and doesnt do.
You can disagree with me (Im fine with it,If you do..) but I insist that interpreting modes in terms of major and minor short changes you from hearing BEYOND major and minor.
I appreacitte that that maybe you are suggesting your method as a way to get from hear to there..in which case..hey whatever floats your boat and gets you to think beyong Major and minor, good and bad, black and white. Duality can get boring.
GtrGeorge

I am just starting this to give people a springboard to work off of. By what your saying you are not really employing the dorian you are in fact playing c major starting with the 2 or 9 of the scale even though the notes are D dorian the tonal center is still C. I wanted people have a solid foundation of the root or tonal center of the different modes and then go off and start lines based on the third, 7, 9 of the modes, but their must be a foundation for the modes and people have to hear the modes as they are meaning to hear the modes you should play for major a G major and play G lydian and hear how the #4 or #11 comes into play as well as playing G mixolydian and hearing how the b7 sounds in the context as well as your G ionian. After you have these solid than you can explore and start these lines on the 3, 5, 7 whatever your heart desires, I know that ending and starting on the root gets boring but it must be done for you ear to hear the tonal center. then if you start your line on the 2 then your ear hears it as such.

 

[Berserker]

Dude! Keep it coming! Great stuff.

 

[Dirtdog]

Dude! Keep it coming! Great stuff.

Thanks man. Will do. Its good to hear some feedback.

 

[SacredGroove]

I've copied your posts into text files for review at my leisure. I've also set this thread to notify me ia email of any replies. Hope you're cool with that?

Thanks a lot!

 

[Dirtdog]

Next up is the Lydian b7 mode
The scale formula for this is 1, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, b7
in G this would be G, A, B, C#, D, E, F
this mode is derived from the D melodic minor scale starting on the 4th note but since I like to think in parallel this is best related to the Lydian scale with a b7 or you can also think of it as a mixolydian with a #4 which is the best way to look at it, and I'll show you why.
The triad chord scale for this is as follows
1 maj, 2 maj, 3 dim, #4 dim, 5 min, 6 min, b7 aug

The 7th chord scale is like this
1 dom 7, 2 dom 7, 3 min 7b5, #4 dim 7, 5 min/maj 7, 6 min 7, b7 maj 7#5
So in relation to the other major modes you have to change two notes from the major scale to get this one namely c#, and F
but if you memorize mixolydian you just have to change one note
but this is still better than thinking you have to remember a whole new scale.
Since the one chord is a dom chord I like to relate this to mixolydian with a #4
to get this sound in your play a static G maj chord and play this over the top
you can also play a G dom 7 chord as well
This mode is best used over a dom 7 chord that is not in the key normally
say you have a chord progression like a C7 to G7 relating this to a mixolydian progression than C7 is the 1 chord which is standard but G7 is not because it should be a minor 7, so over the C7 play C mixolydian and over the G7 play G lydian b7 if you can remember C mixolydian notes
are as follows
C, D. E. F. G. A. Bb
and
G lydian b7
G, A, B, C#, D, E, F
when transitioning between each chord try to be aware that from C7 to G7 Bb goes to B and C goes to C#
and then in reverse going back to C
connecting it this way will make it seem seamless and make your lines smooth and jazzy or just smooth jazzy
I will talk more about lines later after covering the minor modes
which I will talk about next time
feel free to pm with any questions

 

[Julia]

Dude, if I hear it I can play it. I know my modal scales and how to string different ones together and how to shift gears. This stuff all written out like this, I get the deer in the headlights look. I have a music minor, but I got a free pass in theory because my piano teacher taught the theory class -- I never even had to show up. It might not hurt to learn it now though, although my brain doesn't work as well as it used to.

 

[Dirtdog]

Dude, if I hear it I can play it. I know my modal scales and how to string different ones together and how to shift gears. This stuff all written out like this, I get the deer in the headlights look. I have a music minor, but I got a free pass in theory because my piano teacher taught the theory class -- I never even had to show up. It might not hurt to learn it now though, although my brain doesn't work as well as it used to.

Well the thing about music theory is that it also helps communicate more efficiently with other musicians. If you can play anything by ear that is fantastic, but if you can do that and be able to communicate with other musicians more theoretical it might help too. That's the thing with music you can go as deep as you want. I am very analytical when it comes to anything, sometimes maybe to much perhaps, but I like to think that it reinforces certain things which sooner or later will be reflected in the performance aspect of playing. Plus its guaranteed to improve brain function or at least a hemorrhage or two.

 

[Dirtdog]

Minor Modes Part 1

Today I will talk about the Minor sounding modes
the minor scale (Aeolian mode) has a formula of 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7 showing that to get the natural minor scale that the 3, 6, and 7 of the major scale must be lowered a half step.
The Dorian mode has a formula of 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7 showing that it has an alteration on the 6 note of the scale showing that is raised a half step compared to the natural minor scale. I like to compare this to the minor scale because the quality of this mode due to the minor third being present is minor in nature, and it?s easier to remember since you only half to change one note of the natural minor scale.

The Phrygian mode has a scale formula of 1, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7 showing it has an alteration of the second note of the scale showing that is lowered a half step, as compared to the natural minor scale.
Lets take G minor who's notes are G, A, Bb, C, D, Eb, F
going by the above formula for Dorian all we have to do to G minor is raise the 6th degree to E so G Dorian is G, A, Bb, C, D, E, F
if the notes look familiar that?s because its relative major scale is F major
but by using the parallel thinking we take the tonal center away from F major and put it on the 2nd mode G Dorian.
Now going by the formula for the Phrygian mode all we have to do to G minor is lower its 2nd note by a half step so G Phrygian is G, Ab, Bb, C, D, Eb, F again these notes are familiar because the relative major scale to G Phrygian is Eb major but again thinking parallely we take the tonal center away from Eb major and place emphasis on the 3rd mode G Phrygian
Why think of it this way? By relating the minor sounding modes to the natural minor scale all we have to do to our minor scale pattern is change the 6th note Eb to E to get Dorian and the 2nd from A to Ab to get Phrygian. So instead of thinking you have to memorize a bunch of new things just think that all you do to get the minor sounding modes is change one finger in the pattern. Or two working in two octaves and you can have this mode down in no time. This also takes the emphasis off the relative major scale and places it on the mode.
I'd advise to get to hear these modes you should just record with yourself playing a static G minor chord for a few minutes and play these modes back to back to appreciate how they change the mood. If you got to use the relative scale to help do so but try to wean yourself off of it and relate it to its Parallel Minor scale
next time we will work on the chords of each particular minor mode. If you have questions feel free to pm me

 

[guitarcomet]

Not that it matters nor does anyone care, but...

The amount of theory I know wouldn't fill a thimble.
I rejected much of the musical "system" and made my own.

#1. Reading music was nearly impossible for me, being partly dyslexic

#2. I don't like the sound of ALL the scales, so why learn them?

#3. The standard number of notes is 7, right? WRONG! There are 12 notes! The system of A,B,C,D,E,F,G is so whacked it frustrated me within 6 months of playing guitar...so I tossed out learning much of the standard musical notations.

Don't get me wrong, I know my basic notes/chords and I learned enough to communicate with most average musicians.
My problem is simply this:
C sharp or D minor? What's that you say? It depends on the scale?
Horsehockey!
A note should have the same designation no matter what the scale is.
If nobody else agrees, then I must be the biggest outcast in music history.

The sky is blue (except in winter, then it's grey).
Trees are green (except in winter when they turn brown)
So I guess life if just that way.
It doesn't mean that everyone will agree.

 

[Shinozoku]

Don't get me wrong, I know my basic notes/chords and I learned enough to communicate with most average musicians.
My problem is simply this:
C sharp or D minor? What's that you say? It depends on the scale?
Horsehockey!
A note should have the same designation no matter what the scale is.
If nobody else agrees, then I must be the biggest outcast in music history.

The sky is blue (except in winter, then it's grey).
Trees are green (except in winter when they turn brown)
So I guess life if just that way.
It doesn't mean that everyone will agree.

Don't get me wrong, I get you on most of your points, but the difference between C Sharp and D Flat (not minor) is so that you hav a different name on each note of the scale, so instead of going, say,
G, A, A sharp, C (skipping B entirely)

you have

G, A, B flat, C.

The monks from the middle ages and Pythagoras came up with this system, and they though it the best and most efficient for the GENERAL musical world. But there should be some alternative to standard musical theory for those who do have problems like dyslexia that don't quite get it how it's written out.
You carry some very good points though, and I agree that sometimes it's best to just learn what you can and throw the rest out the window Chuck Schuldiner didn't know even as much theory as you do and he created some of the most beautiful and complex music heard in metal in his time!

And in relation to this thread, I'm gonna have to read through it more carefully when I have an instrument in hand, as I'm a sponge for theory and musical knowledge in general

 

[Dirtdog]

Minor Modes Part 2
Today I am going to talk about the minor mode chord scales. Chord scales are nothing more than playing up the scale via the diatonic chords starting from the root of the mode and moving up the mode playing the chords shown.

The G Minor (Aeolian mode) triad chord scale has the following chord formula
1 min, 2 dim, b3 maj, 4 min, 5 min, b6 maj, and b7 maj
for those who don't know what a triad is it is a chord based on the root 3rd and 5th only.
The 7th chord scale for G minor is
1 min7, 2 min7b5, b3 maj7, 4 min7, 5 min7, b6 maj7, and b7 dom7
the 7th chord forms are based on the root, 3, 5, and 7

G Dorian triad chord scale is as follows
1 min, 2 min, b3 maj, 4 maj, 5 min, 6 dim, and b7 maj
and the 7th chord scale is as follows
1 min7, 2 min7, b3 maj7, 4 dom7, 5 min7, 6 min7b5, and b7 maj7

G Phrygian triad chord scale is as follows
1 min, b2 maj, b3 maj, 4 minor, 5 dim, b6 maj, and b7 min
and the 7th chord scale is as follows
1 min 7, b2 maj 7, b3 dom 7, 4 minor 7, 5 minor 7b5, b6 maj 7, and b7 min 7

Play these a few times to get each chord scale in your head.

If you look at the relationship between each mode you will see a difference in the chord qualities between each mode. These differences are caused from the change of the one note that we discussed earlier in the modes like the raised 6th for Dorian and the b2 for Phrygian. So to make the mode stand out you should play a chord progression that emphasizes these little changes

The most widely used chord progression for the minor scale (Aeolian mode) is
1 min to b7 maj to b6 maj to b7 maj

play a 1 min, to 4 maj to b7 maj to 1 min, to get a feel for Dorian you can also just go between the 1 min 7 and 4 dom 7
For Phrygian you can play a 1 min to b2 maj 7 to b7 minor 7 back to 1
try and come up with some more. Use your minor scale chord progressions and try to change them to emphasize the other minor sounding modes
Next time I will talk about the Locrian mode as well as the harmonic minor scale.

 

[Dirtdog]

Minor Modes Part 3

the Locrian Mode scale (7th mode of the Major Scale) has a formula of 1, b2, b3, 4, b5, b6, b7 showing that to get the Locrian mode from the minor scale we need to lower the 2nd note a half step as well as the 5th. Lets take G minor who's notes are G, A, Bb, C, D, Eb, F
going by the above formula for Locrian all we have to do to G minor is lower the 2nd to Ab and the 5th to Db so G Locrian is G, Ab, Bb, C, Db, Eb, F. You could also think of this as G Phrygian with a flatted fifth

The Chord scale for this mode is as follows
G Locrian triad chord scale is as follows
1 dim, b 2 maj, b3 min, 4 min, b 5 maj, b6 maj, and b7 min
and the 7th chord scale is as follows
1 min7b5, b2 maj7, b3 min7, 4 min7,b 5 maj7, b6 dom7, and b7 min7

I cannot recall any song I can think of that has been written around this mode but I still need to give this mode some lip service. This mode is best utilized over a min7b5 chord

To get a feel for this play a G minor7th b5 chord and play locrian on top. You can also play a G minor but don?t sit on the flat 5. instead use it as a passing tone to the 4th if you wind up stuck on it for too long it will clash with the 5th in the chord. Unless what you?re looking for is minor 2nd harmony.

The Harmonic minor scale has a scale formula of 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, 7 showing it has an alteration of the 7th note of the scale showing that is raised a half step, as compared to the natural minor scale.
Lets take G minor who's notes are G, A, Bb, C, D, Eb, F
going by the above formula for G harmonic minor all we have to do to G minor is raise the 7th degree to F# so G harmonic minor is G, A, Bb, C, D, Eb, F#
You may be wondering why there are sharps and flats in the same scale. This is to keep with the 7 notes to a scale in order to correctly write the note it must be written as F# and not Gb and also F# is the 7th note of G Major
The G Harmonic Minor triad chord scale has the following chord formula
1 min, 2 dim, b3 aug, 4 min, 5 maj, b6 maj, and 7 dim
The 7th chord scale for G Harmonic Minor is
1 min/maj7, 2 min7b5, b3 aug7, 4 min7, 5 dom7, b6 maj7, and 7 min7b5

It is called harmonic minor because back in the classical period people wanted more pull back to the root since in the traditional minor scale the 5 chord is minor and lacks the pull of its major counterpart they raised the 7th note of the minor scale so that it would make the 5 chord maj so it has a lot more pull back to the root. So it was changed for harmonic reasons.
To get a feel for this play a G minor chord and play harmonic minor on top and listen for the added half step resolution of the raised 7th. You can also play a G min7 but don?t sit on the raised 7th instead use it as a passing tone to the root.
A couple of chord progressions are as follows
1) G min, C min, F# Dim, G min
2) G min, Bb maj, Eb maj, D maj

next time I will be discussing a mode of the harmonic minor scale mode 5 (otherwise known as Phrygian dominant) and discuss the melodic minor scale. Have fun and pm me for any questions.

 

[GtrGeorge!]

I thank you for your work in explaining all of this. I still think that the way I was suggesting wasnt invalid...sure it IS baby steps to play D to D in a Cmajor scale and say its dorian..but we have to start somewhere,right?
So long as you listen for the tonal shift..or to put it as Walter Piston did (in "Harmony" the book I studied from while in College as a music major)..modality, you should be ok.
But to me, its easy to say one gets it...but fo you really hear the pull as easily as you do in Ionian (I-IV -V)??? That takes time..and a willingness. I suggest playing as I stated above and let the music tell you what is what. But thats as I see it...do you still think I miss the point? If so Id like to know..I currently believe I see it like you, but use a different method to achieve the same half step,whole step arrangements.
Comment?

 

[Dirtdog]

I thank you for your work in explaining all of this. I still think that the way I was suggesting wasnt invalid...sure it IS baby steps to play D to D in a Cmajor scale and say its dorian..but we have to start somewhere,right?
So long as you listen for the tonal shift..or to put it as Walter Piston did (in "Harmony" the book I studied from while in College as a music major)..modality, you should be ok.
But to me, its easy to say one gets it...but fo you really hear the pull as easily as you do in Ionian (I-IV -V)??? That takes time..and a willingness. I suggest playing as I stated above and let the music tell you what is what. But thats as I see it...do you still think I miss the point? If so Id like to know..I currently believe I see it like you, but use a different method to achieve the same half step,whole step arrangements.
Comment?

Like I said earlier when you start on D and end on D and play it over a C major chord you still primarily hear the scale as C major. To play and hear D Dorian you should play a D minor 7th chord and play D to D you could play from C to C because the C is a minor seventh compared to D. I started along time ago doing what you are doing and missed the fact that all these modes have so many different tone colors to offer. My teacher told me to just play D to D in C major and you have Dorian and so on through all the modes but to easily hear it you should play it against a minor 7th chord and also compare it to the natural minor scale who's root is the same. If you play a D minor 7th chord and play Aeolian, Than you play Dorian you can definitely hear the change of tones in each one, the same goes for phrygian compared to Aeolian. This is the quickest way for your ears to hear each mode and get to know it. Sight singing helps but that's something I will discuss later. I do not think that what I am saying is hard to grasp. In fact I think it is alot easier to understand than what traditional theory teaches. relating each one to its parent major scale kinda misses the point. Its a starting point but I think to memorize the major patterns and minor patterns and changing one or two notes to get the different modes is easier than relating back to its parent major scale for all the modes. The more you do this the better your recall will be when you need to whip the modes out, and dont have to think E phrygian, oh yeah 3rd mode of C major got it by the time you got it its already gone.