NAMM 2011 Update

[Mike P]

I'm not sure what to say here. I own some pretty expensive amps. The thought of getting a new module with the tone that the GTO Judge has for $299 seems dirt cheap to me. People are complaining and saying they can pick up a used module that has been modded by someone else for less than $299. This module was a collaboration between Dave Friedman, arguably the best known guy to stick a soldering iron inside of an MTS module and George Lynch. I don't belive any of these other modders are working with a guitarist of Lynch's caliber. So we have one of the most popular amp builders/modders in the world and George Lynch developing a module for this series and we don't want to pay $299 for it?

Granted, Lynch is the most fickle, tone chaser on the planet, but for however long he sat with Friedman and worked on this module, the result is killer. Yet the community doesn't think that's worth $299?

I'm on other forums where guys are dropping $3 and $4k on amps like there is no tomorrow. Guys are dropping $800 on attenuators to make their $3k amps usable. Guys are spending $2k on an Axe FX and then $2k on VHT Power Amps and $1k on cabinets for them. Guys are dropping $200, $300, $400, $500 on freaking stomp boxes made by obscure guys in garages and the first brand new module by Randall in years is being complained about as $299 is too expensive?

I am sitting next to $8k worth of vintage Marshall and boutique amps here in my studio as I type this and I feel like a freaking moron because this $299 module sounds fantastic in a Lynch Box head.

Maybe the Randall MTS line is doomed. The first all new module in years has been out for three weeks. I was the first one to post reviews of it on here, post a video of it on here and put them up on ebay. I've sold one module. Funky Munky put them up on ebay too. They've sold 2 modules. If I was Randall I'd probably consider pulling the plug. When your users aren't willing to pay $299 for a module with the pedigree of the GTO The Judge, what's the point?

I hope you guys don't think I'm ranting here. I'm fairly new here though I have been selling the MTS line since the very beginning. I spend a ton of time on other forums and I marvel at what people are so willing to spend for musical gear. This is just a very different vibe here.

The GTO module I did sell went to this guy. Check out these two videos. IMO both of these tones are worth $299, yet he paid only $150 for each

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9V_OOmSUUk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDwNerooE0c&feature=related

Regardless of the videos you've posted, I'm in complete agreement (except for the part about any of the modders working with a guitarist of Lynch's caliber). But with that said, I think the fault lies with Randall and NOT with MTS customers.

Yes, Randall has begun putting out high quality stock modules the past few years but in my estimation, it's several years too late. The line debuted seven years ago and since then, the quality of modules have risen and receded like the tide, thus opening the door for guys like Sacred Groove, Gigmods, Salvation, JF, etc. to fill in the gap.

I think that Dave is an excellent amp builder and he's currently modding a second module for me, an HBE (the first being a BE). I currently own twelve modules, all of which have been modified. And they've been modified because as a composer/producer/musician that not only provides tracks to large music library companies and a just finished full-length feature film, it's mainly due to the fact that the stock modules to date haven't been up to snuff.

And by "up to snuff", I'm stating that they don't compare with a stock Diezel, Engl, Rectifier or classic Marshall. Some are closer than others but to the discerning ear, they're not "there". But for only a few hundred dollars per module, there are guys that can absolutely NAIL classic and modern amp tones perfectly.

Randall bought the rights to a great concept developed by Bruce Egnater but has since pretty much dropped the ball. And while I agree that the Lynch modules are certainly a step in the right direction, I fear it may be too little, too late.

It's up to Randall to decide.

 

[PhiloBeddoe]

I really don't think most people here have a big problem with the price. After all, we all bought the stuff. In fact, for what some people pay for a module+modification they could have bought the original amp (e.g. used 5150). Since the distribution is so poor most of us don't have the means to try out even the stock modules so we are buying this stuff on faith or maybe a crappy youtube video at best. This has a lot to do with why the used market is so active.

I do mostly recording and for me this system is unparalleled in function. It also feeds perfectly into the whole hoarders/collectors nature of guitarists. What the users feel here is a missed opportunity. It's possible that the MTS line is just not profitable, I have no idea. But I think this concept is a real winner.

The frustration comes from a lack of confidence in the company. I've had a handful of interactions with them, some face-to-face, and had mixed results. The whole operation honestly seemed disorganized and they seem to have a lot of turnover. Customers want to have confidence that they own something from a solid company, even if the product ends up discontinued. And you are not going to get confidence if you keep promising customers that new things are on the way when they are not.

 

[Hamner1]

I'm not sure what to say here. I own some pretty expensive amps. The thought of getting a new module with the tone that the GTO Judge has for $299 seems dirt cheap to me. People are complaining and saying they can pick up a used module that has been modded by someone else for less than $299. This module was a collaboration between Dave Friedman, arguably the best known guy to stick a soldering iron inside of an MTS module and George Lynch. I don't belive any of these other modders are working with a guitarist of Lynch's caliber. So we have one of the most popular amp builders/modders in the world and George Lynch developing a module for this series and we don't want to pay $299 for it?

Granted, Lynch is the most fickle, tone chaser on the planet, but for however long he sat with Friedman and worked on this module, the result is killer. Yet the community doesn't think that's worth $299?

I'm on other forums where guys are dropping $3 and $4k on amps like there is no tomorrow. Guys are dropping $800 on attenuators to make their $3k amps usable. Guys are spending $2k on an Axe FX and then $2k on VHT Power Amps and $1k on cabinets for them. Guys are dropping $200, $300, $400, $500 on freaking stomp boxes made by obscure guys in garages and the first brand new module by Randall in years is being complained about as $299 is too expensive?

I am sitting next to $8k worth of vintage Marshall and boutique amps here in my studio as I type this and I feel like a freaking moron because this $299 module sounds fantastic in a Lynch Box head.

Maybe the Randall MTS line is doomed. The first all new module in years has been out for three weeks. I was the first one to post reviews of it on here, post a video of it on here and put them up on ebay. I've sold one module. Funky Munky put them up on ebay too. They've sold 2 modules. If I was Randall I'd probably consider pulling the plug. When your users aren't willing to pay $299 for a module with the pedigree of the GTO The Judge, what's the point?

I hope you guys don't think I'm ranting here. I'm fairly new here though I have been selling the MTS line since the very beginning. I spend a ton of time on other forums and I marvel at what people are so willing to spend for musical gear. This is just a very different vibe here.

The GTO module I did sell went to this guy. Check out these two videos. IMO both of these tones are worth $299, yet he paid only $150 for each

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9V_OOmSUUk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDwNerooE0c&feature=related

Regardless of the videos you've posted, I'm in complete agreement (except for the part about any of the modders working with a guitarist of Lynch's caliber). But with that said, I think the fault lies with Randall and NOT with MTS customers.

Yes, Randall has begun putting out high quality stock modules the past few years but in my estimation, it's several years too late. The line debuted seven years ago and since then, the quality of modules have risen and receded like the tide, thus opening the door for guys like Sacred Groove, Gigmods, Salvation, JF, etc. to fill in the gap.

I think that Dave is an excellent amp builder and he's currently modding a second module for me, an HBE (the first being a BE). I currently own twelve modules, all of which have been modified. And they've been modified because as a composer/producer/musician that not only provides tracks to large music library companies and a just finished full-length feature film, it's mainly due to the fact that the stock modules to date haven't been up to snuff.

And by "up to snuff", I'm stating that they don't compare with a stock Diezel, Engl, Rectifier or classic Marshall. Some are closer than others but to the discerning ear, they're not "there". But for only a few hundred dollars per module, there are guys that can absolutely NAIL classic and modern amp tones perfectly.

Randall bought the rights to a great concept developed by Bruce Egnater but has since pretty much dropped the ball. And while I agree that the Lynch modules are certainly a step in the right direction, I fear it may be too little, too late.

I still think $300 is excessive for the Sig modules, then I also think $2000 is excessive for a complete head. Although I think Lynch did more with his mods than just allow his name to be associated with it. I'll defend Randall on the tone of the modules. Let's not forget that most of those coveted Marshall tones we crave are modded Marshalls or slammed with an OD in front. Besides there has been lengthy discussion before of the variance of identicle components and even like Marshals are not identicle.

 

[Daryl]

People are complaining and saying they can pick up a used module that has been modded by someone else for less than $299. This module was a collaboration between Dave Friedman, arguably the best known guy to stick a soldering iron inside of an MTS module and George Lynch.
When your users aren't willing to pay $299 for a module with the pedigree of the GTO The Judge, what's the point?

I think you may be missing the point a little. I understand that Dave Friedman had a hand in the design of this GTO, however I am pretty sure that he isn't hand building these himself. That is one of the major differences between the stock and modded modules. The stock modules, even the signature series modules, are manufactured in China. An experienced and skilled modder, like Dave Friedman, Anthony Salvado, Pete Turley, Trace Davis, Etc.., takes that platform and adjusts it to taste or to achieve a more idealized simulation of the amp they desire. While this module may be everything that Dave could have hoped for, it makes more sense to have a pro go through the module and assure that it is %100 the best it can be. Their reputation rides on it. It is that extra measure of care and quality control that creates a higher level of confidence. There can also be wide variances in part tolerances so that, even two modules of the same design could have quite different sound and feel. It can be a gamble to buy a stock module and hope it sounds good. Seriously, if you had a choice between a module built by Dave or one designed by Dave, I'd be willing to wager that you would choose the one built by Dave every time. Even if there was little to no perceivable difference in tone. I'm not trying to bust your balls, but I think that this is the dynamic we are dealing with.

 

[Mattfig]

I would totally shell out 3 bills for a great stock module...In fact, when I first got started I supported Randall and bought stock modules...In the end, they wound up being an inferior product when compared against their modded counterparts so I stopped buying them new...To me, that's Randall's fault...I'd still be buying stockers if they held up...They fell behind the times with their own product and now their answer to solving that is to allow a very slow dribble of stock mods to come out...It's a total bummer...

I sincerely appreciate those dealers who stock Randall stuff and I feel bad for you guys because you would have more biz from the forum members if Randall would keep up....****, Randall should hire the modders or acquisition their designs and we're back at even...Everyone makes a few bucks then...

I find it crappy that I have to buy a stock module, ship it overseas and back and pay for mods to get the tone I want...But Randall does nothing to make such a product available so I must...Believe me, we'd all buy Randall if we could get that tone and have it delivered to your door within a few days time...Randall can't catch up without hiring some modders besides Friedman...He's awesome but spread thin...Get some of the dedicated guys here...

 

[Daryl]

I would totally shell out 3 bills for a great stock module...In fact, when I first got started I supported Randall and bought stock modules...In the end, they wound up being an inferior product when compared against their modded counterparts so I stopped buying them new...To me, that's Randall's fault...I'd still be buying stockers if they held up...They fell behind the times with their own product and now their answer to solving that is to allow a very slow dribble of stock mods to come out...It's a total bummer...

I sincerely appreciate those dealers who stock Randall stuff and I feel bad for you guys because you would have more biz from the forum members if Randall would keep up....s*&t, Randall should hire the modders or acquisition their designs and we're back at even...Everyone makes a few bucks then...

I find it crappy that I have to buy a stock module, ship it overseas and back and pay for mods to get the tone I want...But Randall does nothing to make such a product available so I must...Believe me, we'd all buy Randall if we could get that tone and have it delivered to your door within a few days time...Randall can't catch up without hiring some modders besides Friedman...He's awesome but spread thin...Get some of the dedicated guys here...

+1
I agree Fig...
I played and still use stock modules, but they really are just good and not great. My meager collection of two modded modules have so much more life to them that I am just going to ship my stock modules out to get the tones I need. I would have loved the MTS line to have been awesome from the get go, but the trust in Randall as a company is waning with me. I think profit margins are more important than quality and customer satisfaction. U.S musicorp is spread too thin as well...

 

[audiomidijace]

I'm not sure what to say here. I own some pretty expensive amps. The thought of getting a new module with the tone that the GTO Judge has for $299 seems dirt cheap to me. People are complaining and saying they can pick up a used module that has been modded by someone else for less than $299. This module was a collaboration between Dave Friedman, arguably the best known guy to stick a soldering iron inside of an MTS module and George Lynch. I don't belive any of these other modders are working with a guitarist of Lynch's caliber. So we have one of the most popular amp builders/modders in the world and George Lynch developing a module for this series and we don't want to pay $299 for it?

Granted, Lynch is the most fickle, tone chaser on the planet, but for however long he sat with Friedman and worked on this module, the result is killer. Yet the community doesn't think that's worth $299?

I'm on other forums where guys are dropping $3 and $4k on amps like there is no tomorrow. Guys are dropping $800 on attenuators to make their $3k amps usable. Guys are spending $2k on an Axe FX and then $2k on VHT Power Amps and $1k on cabinets for them. Guys are dropping $200, $300, $400, $500 on freaking stomp boxes made by obscure guys in garages and the first brand new module by Randall in years is being complained about as $299 is too expensive?

I am sitting next to $8k worth of vintage Marshall and boutique amps here in my studio as I type this and I feel like a freaking moron because this $299 module sounds fantastic in a Lynch Box head.

Maybe the Randall MTS line is doomed. The first all new module in years has been out for three weeks. I was the first one to post reviews of it on here, post a video of it on here and put them up on ebay. I've sold one module. Funky Munky put them up on ebay too. They've sold 2 modules. If I was Randall I'd probably consider pulling the plug. When your users aren't willing to pay $299 for a module with the pedigree of the GTO The Judge, what's the point?

I hope you guys don't think I'm ranting here. I'm fairly new here though I have been selling the MTS line since the very beginning. I spend a ton of time on other forums and I marvel at what people are so willing to spend for musical gear. This is just a very different vibe here.

The GTO module I did sell went to this guy. Check out these two videos. IMO both of these tones are worth $299, yet he paid only $150 for each

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9V_OOmSUUk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDwNerooE0c&feature=related

First of all, thank you for supporting the MTS line at your store! Also, thank you for putting up a video so quickly on the GTO. I certainly appreciate it.
It really bummed me out when they rebadged the 1086 as the Plexi Plus. I'm not a fan of the 1086 anyway, but the last thing we needed was another Marshall module. Then we finally get a NEW module and it's another Marshall! Not only that, but it's another Lynch module! And it's the most expensive module that Randall has ever offered! We were all told that NEW modules of DIFFERENT amps were on the way. Yet all we got was more of the same. So the price really isn't the issue. It's just adding insult to injury.
Jace

 

[ned]

Just remember that every amp is basically a derivative of a Bassman. Marshalls are Bassman amps with EL34's instead of 6L6 power tubes. Then things started getting tweaked from there.

 

[kc2eeb]

Ned
And they used EL34s because they were easier to get, and much cheaper, in Great Britain.

 

[Ultron]

Randall, I am disappoint.

This thread does bum me out a bit, seeing as Randall is one of the most inept amp manufacturers in terms of marketing its products. Hell, Bugera has bigger presence/effort. Such great technology and truly unlimited potential being wasted by bad decisions from disconnected suits.

All that being said, we should be ecstatic at the number and quality of modders out there.....keeping MTS thriving.

 

[djd100]

One thing Randall could do is remove the ceramic caps from the audio path, they have no place in anything audio. I haven't seen the sig modules so perhaps they have now, but in the early modules anyway I always recap the ceramics (opens up the high end and removes harshness etc).

I'd agree with the distribution complaints as my friend and I had to build our own RM2 out here on the west coast way back when, as there was no MTS equipment on the west coast. There were other stand alone Randall amps in stores out here, but nothing MTS.

Supposedly Bruce is going to keep going with the Egnater MTS stuff being assembled off-shore, so hopefully Randall will too.

I played and still use stock modules, but they really are just good and not great. My meager collection of two modded modules have so much more life to them that I am just going to ship my stock modules out to get the tones I need.

 

[slashnstrings]

Supposedly Bruce is going to keep going with the Egnater MTS stuff being assembled off-shore, so hopefully Randall will too.

oh oh, the off-shore topic is a touchy one around here, i remember that going really rough.

I just hope we start seeing some new mods or at least some advertising for them to keep me comfortable about them.

 

[djd100]

Well, it's a double edged sword, because most probably believe shipping western jobs to China is idiocy, though for the manufacturers if they don't they can't compete price-wise. As long as our idiotic government allows massive Trade Deficits manufacturers won't have much choice in the matter if they want to stay in business.

Supposedly Bruce is going to keep going with the Egnater MTS stuff being assembled off-shore, so hopefully Randall will too.

oh oh, the off-shore topic is a touchy one around here, i remember that going really rough.

I just hope we start seeing some new mods or at least some advertising for them to keep me comfortable about them.

 

[speedemon]

The term you are looking for is "Catch 22"

the more offshoring, the more people can't pay for domestically made goods.

 

[Nightdare]

The term you are looking for is "Catch 22"

the more offshoring, the more people can't pay for domestically made goods.

And most offshoring is done to appease stockholders

"expensive labour" my ***

 

[djd100]

Indeed, thanks!

Increased off-shoring equals more unemployment, more crime, more drug use and alcoholism, more welfare and food stamps, more use of emergency rooms due to a lack of health insurance, decreased retail sales, decreased real estate sales (to US buyers anyway), and lower tax revenues! Add twenty million illegal immigrants taking away jobs and slashing wages and it gets way worse.

This isn't rocket science...

The term you are looking for is "Catch 22"

the more offshoring, the more people can't pay for domestically made goods.

 

[eedude]

Very Long, get a six-pack of beer?.or just skip this post, it just doesn?t really matter.

IMO there are problem on several levels, perhaps this is all obvious but I'll state it anyway: marketing, design and the module aspect.

I?m a gear junkie I?m always buying and trying. In all my years of this I have never come across an MTS amp in Portland and have had no motivation (via advertisement) to search for one on ebay, it was just not on my radar even though I kind?a knew it existed. I think what finally caught my eye was a modders XTC?s front panel. I must have been searching ebay for a bogner amp or something. I then investigated and took the leap (on used gear). So you could say that the reason I bought into MTS was a result of a modder?. Not Randall.

On design, this is a very expensive amp to manufacture relative to other amps. For Bruce that was probably okay since he is classified as a boutique builder and can command a high retail price. For Randall, they have to be very cost conscience. The mechanical assembly and components to make it modular makes this amp more expensive then non-modular amps, the tweak and fuse per tube, the oversized power transformer to accommodate just about any power tube and the number of tubes is all money. Being expensive to manufacture means the price needs to be high or the margins need to be low. IMO the head is priced pretty much as high as the market can bear, even probably too high. From sweetwater here are some prices:
Rm100 $1909 (loaded with non signature modules at $209 each)
Mesa Dual rec: $1899
Marshall Vin/Mod: $1299
Peavey 6505: $999

Note: I realize the features on these amps are different, but some kid walking into a music store could walk out with anyone of these?.and now that I?m looking at the prices I don?t know why I?m not using a 6505!

So anyway, the Randall is up in Mesa territory, and Randall is not that class of manufacture. Randall is more like a Peavey. I?m not talking sound I?m just stating class, you don?t pay Cadillac price for a car made by Chevy, even if it?s a great car. In addition, it?s my opinion, that the stock modules are just okay, but they are NOT $1909 blow-me-away. The XTC does not sound like an XTC and the treadplate does not sound like a dual recto (I understand the technical reasons way, I?m just stating the fact).

So, given the high price and the lack amps on the floor I suspect this amp does not sell well. Low sells with high cost means low profit. I bet that Randall can make a better return on investment by allocating its resources to other products with better margins and/or sells. I think the new LB head speaks to that point. It probably costs less to manufacture and the consumer has to buy the whole thing (not just a module).

 

[crankyrayhanky]

the reason I bought into MTS was a result of a modder?. Not Randall.

Me too

 

[HughJasol]

So, given the high price and the lack amps on the floor I suspect this amp does not sell well. Low sells with high cost means low profit. I bet that Randall can make a better return on investment by allocating its resources to other products with better margins and/or sells. I think the new LB head speaks to that point. It probably costs less to manufacture and the consumer has to buy the whole thing (not just a module).

Which is why I'm not buying Randall's previously-claimed stance that "MTS is here to stay" . . . of course if Randall really has any prayer of keeping MTS alive, what else can they say? They've done nothing different marketing-wise that I can see since the buyout - just a few empty promises so far . . .

 

[RD/Steve]

beginning of rant

i am not going to get into flame wars...so if that is what you guys want, go somewhere else. let me prefice by saying that before i go any further.

mts is here to stay. we have 3 new scott ian modules that should be arriving soon. these were done with scott...so the reason they didn't make it to namm because they weren't finished in time...or more so...weren't given the go ahead with scott's approval yet.

i think what the public fails to realize is randall did come out with a redesigned lynch box, the minion amps, the rt series, the diavlo and various other things at namm. all new product. was it mts focus'd? no. but randall is more than mts and did have new things at namm.

what *I* like is different than what others like. when we design a module...it has to be sellable. something alot of people would like...not what a few would. alot of money goes into prototyping, manufactoring costs, marketing, etc...it's more than just "making modules." this stuff takes time to happen, and we try to make sure we offer something the public will purchase and want. it may not be for everyone...but when it's built, it's built for a reason.

simply saying randall doesn't care, or is old news isn't the case at all. you may be disappointed we haven't made the particular module YOU would like to see...but that doesn't mean everyone wants THAT module or that randall isn't offering new product.

end of rant.