New Grail-Sounds Different-Why?-Updated Photos

[LoD21]

Just bought a brand new Grail. Drop shipped direct from Randall. Did so based on listening to the one MyDemise let me borrow for. I'm a little disappointed. Made sure preamp tubes were the same(JJecc83s) and A/B'ed side by side in the same head. I can see a couple visible changes on the circuit board. I'm guessing that has some impact.

The primary difference is in the lows and mids. Lows are bigger and the mids are a boxier frequency i don't care for. The older Grail actually sounds a bit more cutting and Marshall like. (mixing JJE34L and SEDEL34 power tubes).

Overall it sounds like Randall tried to make it a fatter more Mesa like tone but in the process sacraficed clarity and a sweeter more cutting mid tone.

Thinking about buying a used one and returning this one ASAP.

If anyone knows anything on the specifics of what changes Randall made and how easy it may or may not be to get those cutting mids back I would greatly appreciate any input.


Thanks

 

[JKD]

Check the values of c3 (should be 500pf or 0.0005uf) and C14...I think c14 is erm...hang on...470uF.

There may be variability from tube to tube also..I wouldn't assumed that all are equal unless I had the same tubes while testing

 

[LoD21]

I hear ya on the tubes but I tried a few different tubes and while I can hear those variances this was pretty significant.


C2 on the old Grail was a brownish orange ceramic and the new one is a round blue shiny cap reading either 02 or was 102/1kv . it is warn off.

C3 on old grail is a black cap and the new one is a carmel brown cap. Can't see the value clearly. Looks like is says 511J1??? And it doesn't quite look just like a mica cap. as I assume C8,C9,C16,and C17 are.

C4 on the old one was a browninsh orage ceramic. The new one has yellow tantalum cap reading 222k/1kv.

C11 and 12 look to also have been changed to tantalum caps.

C14 on the old grail was just a little bright orange square box cap. The new one is a yellow square tantalum at 470.

C21,23,25 on the old one are some sort of blue caps-can't read the value. The new one has 3 yellow boxes-100nj00

Then several of the resistors on the new one seem to be of a different material. Some are larger with different stripe codes and they are gray vs tan.

Please excuse my ignorance. I'm not the electronics expert some of you guys are.

Thanks for the help

 

[JKD]

Yeah...changes in cap type of that magnitude can certainly affect the tone.

The resistor changes I think are slightly higher power handling (if they are physically bigger) and the colour change is a tighter tolerance (blue/gray right?)

That's a ton of changes to compete with tho'..sounds like you'd be better off looking for an older one or a Recto/Treadplate and getting it modded to Grail specs.

 

[LoD21]

Exactly, resistors are larger in size and a blue/gray color. I actually had to turn the module up a bit more in volume to match the older module.

When you say to buy an old Recto or Treadplate and have it modded to Grail specs, how do we know which specs to mod to? The guy at Funky Monkey Music says in talking to Randall they are "always" making little changes to do what they think is improve the sounds.

Also is there a reason you wouldn't just grab an older grail?

Lastly I thought i saw a post a while back where someone mentioned that Randall is now building the Grail to the specs of what he had been modding them to. Ring a bell?

 

[JKD]

Exactly, resistors are larger in size and a blue/gray color. I actually had to turn the module up a bit more in volume to match the older module.

When you say to buy an old Recto or Treadplate and have it modded to Grail specs, how do we know which specs to mod to? The guy at Funky Monkey Music says in talking to Randall they are "always" making little changes to do what they think is improve the sounds.

Also is there a reason you wouldn't just grab an older grail?

Lastly I thought i saw a post a while back where someone mentioned that Randall is now building the Grail to the specs of what he had been modding them to. Ring a bell?

Older Recto/Treadplate = $135...$2 to $3 in electronic parts and 30 mins labor <<<< used Grail at $185.

If you have it professionally modded and change the cosmetics too then you're better off going for a used Grail (ask for pics first..LOL!)

Randall tweak stuff as and when...it's one thing that's aking me hesitant to sell my Grail as I can't assume to get one that sounds as good back if I ever want the stock version again :-/

 

[LoD21]

That makes sense.
Does anyone have the specs on how to do the changes from a Recto to a Grail? Just a couple caps?

I would not sell your Grail.
I have a 1986 JCM800 Bruce Egnater modded the hell out of and until I heard my buddies older Grail in an RM100 I never heard anything come even close to sounding that cool. It's different...don't get me wrong....but it sounds so good. That's why I was so bummed when i got the new grail. I plan on running the JCM800 with the RM100/Grail.

 

[riff man]

it doesn't make sense to me that Randall would re-modify the Signature class Mod's ... i understand that they tweak the regular stock mods based alot on what happens to these mods in the field ... but not the Sig class .. i would think that you'd have to get approval from Mr. lynch to change that kinda stuff ..IDK maybe someone from randall can chime in on this

 

[BIGKAHUNA]

That makes sense.
Does anyone have the specs on how to do the changes from a Recto to a Grail? Just a couple caps?

I would not sell your Grail.
I have a 1986 JCM800 Bruce Egnater modded the hell out of and until I heard my buddies older Grail in an RM100 I never heard anything come even close to sounding that cool. It's different...don't get me wrong....but it sounds so good. That's why I was so bummed when i got the new grail. I plan on running the JCM800 with the RM100/Grail.

If you ever want to get rid of that 800 - let me know!

 

[LoD21]

I agree. I didn't think they could change the signature models like that. I will be calling them this morning.

Big K-Giving up that Marshall would be like parting with my child. I do however plan on asking Bruce to make me a module that sounds just like it at some point.

 

[LoD21]

So I just spoke with a rep at Randall. The went and checked with the tech responsible for the Grail. He says there have been zero changes. I am going to attempt to post a photo here. I will have a photo of the old grail later. Here is the new one. Maybe someone will be able to tell me if this looks anything like their Grail.

[/img]

 

[Sampson]

I'll look at mine when I get home but is there any chance the older Grail you are comparing to has been modified and that's why its so drastically different?

 

[JKD]

I'll get a shot of mine at lunchtime and post it for compare. I've noticed over time that some modules will have the square blue poly caps instead of the bulky brown ones..not really paid attention to the smaller caps..they are usually ceramic.

 

[LoD21]

I was thinking that too. However the old one came in a Lynch Box my buddy bought on Ebay from a guy who claimed it was one month old with no modifications.

 

[Jaded Faith]

That shot looks pretty inline with many of the recent modules I have been getting in for work from guys. The part changes in question are improvements over older parts that were first used by Randall. I would have to bet the differences you are experiencing are a result of slight value and part changes. On thier own they are minor, but they can add up.

 

[gweb]

I've owned quite a few duplicate modules and I've noticed that the components are different in most of them. The values are the same but the type/manufacturer of component is different. Some have blue caps, some brown, some are rectangular, but the values are the same. The Grail you have pictured looks like mine but the most noticeable differences are that my C14 is a WIMA cap, and the 3 rear yellow rectangular caps on yours are thin blue ceramic types on mine. Differently manufactured caps will give a different sound usually, although sometimes it's subtle...I put all orange drops, sozos, and silver micas in my modules because they give me the tone I want, where I want it. Also, Pete (and Jaded just did) has mentioned before that the component tolerances may have a cumulative effect on the overall tone of a preamp. All three of my stock 1086's sounded different. Both my Grail's sounded different. This may be the case with your Grail.

 

[RACKSYSTEMS]

Well as usual the spec in the one in the picture is wrong. C12 should not be there at all. C14 is supposed to be a wima fkp2 470 pf cap. C3 should be 500pf silver mica cap. C4 should be a regular brown ceramic .0022 cap. The one in the pic is a ceramic coated it will work. C11 I don't remember the value off hand but it should also be ceramic. Oh and it is supposed to ship with chinese 12ax7s. These are the specs that I did with lynch.

 

[JKD]

Well as usual the spec in the one in the picture is wrong. C12 should not be there at all. C14 is supposed to be a wima fkp2 470 pf cap. C3 should be 500pf silver mica cap. C4 should be a regular brown ceramic .0022 cap. The one in the pic is a ceramic coated it will work. C11 I don't remember the value off hand but it should also be ceramic. Oh and it is supposed to ship with chinese 12ax7s. These are the specs that I did with lynch.

Nice one Dave! :twisted:

 

[LoD21]

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

To address the previous post...the module did come with Ruby 12ax7ac5/HG but I replaced with JJ to compare.

According to the tech at Randall, they have always used these yellow tantalum caps??? However they tell me they aren't built at Randall. They just receive them prebuilt, insert tubes, and ship out so not sure how they would know for sure.

According to the serial numbers on my new one it was built in August 2008 even though it shipped direct from Randall last Friday. The old one was built in January 2007.


Serial number starting with 0701= year/month=2007/January. Most of you seasoned veterans probably knew that already though.

Thanks again.

 

[LoD21]

So seeing as this board doesn't look right, does it resemble any other module? Perhaps a mix up?