New Grail-Sounds Different-Why?-Updated Photos

[RD/Steve]

there have been no changes to the grail modules. at NAMM 09, we even got with Dave Freidman to ensure the modules were at the correct spec. he still mods those modules...but the spec we have is the original spec done for George by Dave.

Low...let's make sure there were no modifications done to the module you think is better. going by what someone said (especially to sell what they want to sell) is no way of knowing for sure.

other things to consider: what speakers were used, power tubes used, where the head was bias'd, guitar used...etc, etc. lots of variables in the equation.

that said...i have heard the same modules right here in the factory sound different. same with amps. there may be different tolerances within the same part with the same spec. some may say the same spec, but might not be. even tubes sound different even though they are the same model and type.

this is what impresses me so much with Pete's modifications. he actually tries each transistor or cap til he find the one that sounds best.

hail Pete!

 

[JKD]

So I just spoke with a rep at Randall. The went and checked with the tech responsible for the Grail. He says there have been zero changes. I am going to attempt to post a photo here. I will have a photo of the old grail later. Here is the new one. Maybe someone will be able to tell me if this looks anything like their Grail.

[/img]

Here's an old Grail. I've had this since they were first available, the OD in c3 is my mod and I changed r38 due to it failing:

 

[RACKSYSTEMS]

Ok the yellow caps in the first one are fine. Both of them have c12 which is wrong it should not be there. The 2nd one has the wima cap and it looks like some one replaced one cap with a orange drop. So the spec is wrong on both. Dave

 

[RACKSYSTEMS]

Also the the first one has a lot of metal oxide resistors in it. These will change the sound also. Send it to me and I can make it just like the other one for you. Dave

 

[JKD]

Ok the yellow caps in the first one are fine. Both of them have c12 which is wrong it should not be there. The 2nd one has the wima cap and it looks like some one replaced one cap with a orange drop. So the spec is wrong on both. Dave

Now you've got me all curious what c12 does, I might have to remove it and try it

Yeah..that's my change...I prefer the 1000pf in there and just happened to have the OD around (which I like)

 

[JKD]

Also the the first one has a lot of metal oxide resistors in it. These will change the sound also. Send it to me and I can make it just like the other one for you. Dave

Randall has started shipping modules with those resistors in..have seen 2 or 3 newer modules with them in as stock recently.

 

[LoD21]

Steve

Thanks for the reply. I hear you loud and clear. I guess what has validated my concern is Dave's posts expressing that my intial photo shows that the schematic was not followed correctly. To be clear, that first photo is one that I just took Thursday morning of a module that I just purchased. It was shipped directly from Randall Friday on behalf of the retailer I purchased it from. Oddly it was built in August of 2008. The ?older? module I spoke of is my buddy's module which came from a Lynch Box he purchased.

The 2nd photo posted earlier was posted by JKD for comparison, not to be confused with my buddies which I had yet to post. Thanks again JKD.

As for the comparison done, we just repeated the process tonight. Both modules were compared in the same head side by side at the very same moment. Just a channel click away from each other. Thus the cab, head, cables, power tubes, and guitar used were all the same and so should not matter. We also flip-flopped the preamp tubes (all jjecc83s)in the 2 Grail modules to rule out any variance there. We even swapped module positions on the amp to be sure there wasn't something funky going on with the module connection within the head itself. We then repeated the process in yet a 2nd RM100. We definitely made sure to compare apples to apples. I think we covered all bases.

By far the older grail sounds much better. The only positive thing I can say about the new one is that the low end has a noticable amount more weight and girth to it. The mids are way too dark and don?t cut at all-not even on 10. Not crisp. The highs are just ok. And what bothers me most is this low mid voicing characteristic that I can?t control no matter what I do with any of the knobs or bright switch. It's just really murky.

Tonight I got photos of my buddies older Grail that sounds great.



My New Grail Built August 2008:

Friend's older Grail Built January 2007 (sounds real good):

JKD's Grail-According to the serial number not only was it also built in January 2007 but is "the" module built right before my friend's Grail:

[/quote]

 

[LoD21]

RACKSYSTEMS Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:02 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok the yellow caps in the first one are fine. Both of them have c12 which is wrong it should not be there. The 2nd one has the wima cap and it looks like some one replaced one cap with a orange drop. So the spec is wrong on both. Dave

RACKSYSTEMS Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:05 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also the the first one has a lot of metal oxide resistors in it. These will change the sound also. Send it to me and I can make it just like the other one for you. Dave

Dave,

Thanks again for all of the input. I really appreciate your expertise.

When I decided to purchase the Grail, I did some research. After hearing through the grapevine that Randall was ?now? building the Grail to your and George?s specs, I went out of my way to ensure I received one built in the last couple months but ended up with one built in August 2008.

I?m going to try and work this out before I pay to mod a brand new Grail that I payed full price for. If it doesn?t work out, I?ll have to take you up on that offer.

Thanks Again!

Shawn

 

[RD/Steve]

i am in the process of sending Dave all the schematics for the Lynch modules to ensure they are to his current spec. we've seen the video where George and Dave play around with the module...and it looks as though they may have fine tuned it even more. regardless...if we can make the product even better than it already is, i'm all for it.

if in fact the older ones were out of spec and "sound better," and the "new" ones have been put to spec, but something missing...i don't know what to say.

this is the first i've heard of someone having issues with the "new" modules. again...even if these things are built exactly the same, some caps/resisters will sound different even if they are the same spec. goes back to the old marshalls and how some were just better than others. "good sounding ones."

by the way...we've just sent a chassis and 3 modules to dave for him to tweak to do a "friedman" rm100. i'll let you guys know how it turns out. keep it under your hats though...

 

[RACKSYSTEMS]

Steve pictures like these please and schematics

 

[RD/Steve]

for the record...i went back and cut one leg of c12 out, and played between both modules. (grail)

at first, i liked the the change. then...after about 2 mins...i dug the stock module better. it seemed that stock the module is a little smoother. cutting out the c12 seemed to open it up a little, but the difference was really minimal. i also noticed both modules did sound different in their stock form. could be the way the knobs are screwed on as they weren't at the same position in reality due to the slight difference in position when the knobs were installed. again...the very little things can blur the "actual" sound or perception of things being different when they probably aren't.

i might try this on a sl+ as i think it might make it a touch more plexi. either way, it's an easy fix if you cut one leg...just solder it back on.

dave, i will try and get photo's for you as well.

 

[LoD21]

Good point Steve. I had to adjust my knobs on the Grail to make them same same before we compared.

PS
We got a little carried away last night a snapped shots of some other modules for future reference just incase we might need them. If anyone is interested or needs any of them let me know and I will post.

2 Grails 07 and 08
2 Mr. Scary both from 07 but sound different
SuperV from 07
2 Plexi both older silver face
XTC from 06
Recto (sounds really really good but flubby lows)from 02 i think
1086 from 08
SL+ i think from 02 or 03
BlackFace from 03
Clean from 05

 

[JKD]

for the record...i went back and cut one leg of c12 out, and played between both modules. (grail)

at first, i liked the the change. then...after about 2 mins...i dug the stock module better. it seemed that stock the module is a little smoother. cutting out the c12 seemed to open it up a little, but the difference was really minimal. i also noticed both modules did sound different in their stock form. could be the way the knobs are screwed on as they weren't at the same position in reality due to the slight difference in position when the knobs were installed. again...the very little things can blur the "actual" sound or perception of things being different when they probably aren't.

i might try this on a sl+ as i think it might make it a touch more plexi. either way, it's an easy fix if you cut one leg...just solder it back on.

dave, i will try and get photo's for you as well.

Steve...you rock dude...might have to try it but I think my Grail is aggressive enough already to be honest.

 

[gweb]

We got a little carried away last night a snapped shots of some other modules for future reference just incase we might need them. If anyone is interested or needs any of them let me know and I will post.

I've been putting together a file of as many gut shots as I can get. Any chance you could email me what you have (I'll PM my email to you), or just post 'em and I'll copy from the forum.

Thanks,
Greg

 

[LoD21]

Module Gut Photos posted in new thread in Module section as requested.

 

[Shinozoku]

Good point Steve. I had to adjust my knobs on the Grail to make them same same before we compared.

PS
We got a little carried away last night a snapped shots of some other modules for future reference just incase we might need them. If anyone is interested or needs any of them let me know and I will post.

2 Grails 07 and 08
2 Mr. Scary both from 07 but sound different
SuperV from 07
2 Plexi both older silver face
XTC from 06
Recto (sounds really really good but flubby lows)from 02 i think
1086 from 08
SL+ i think from 02 or 03
BlackFace from 03
Clean from 05

Did that November Scary come with Ruby 7025's? Or was it just changes in the caps that made it more airy?

 

[LoD21]

Both modules came with JJ's. As for why it sounds more open and airyi'm not sure. The boards do look a bit different though don't they.

 

[Shinozoku]

Both modules came with JJ's. As for why it sounds more open and airyi'm not sure. The boards do look a bit different though don't they.

Yeah. but all I noticed were the blue caps and some of the resistors faced the other way.

What I found odd was the lack of metal film caps in all of them! Do you get a lot of noise from any of them?

EDIT: Looked again. the 1086 and the Grail 08 had them (I noticed a regular carbon comp in the Plexi's C3 too, which was odd). But all of my modules have metal films in the less tone-dependent areas, except my Ultra Lead which is noisier than even my Ultra XL!