New MTS manufacturer!?!

[Mike P]

Listen, I'm really digging my Lynch Box and I love my Hilligan modded SL+ and my Judge and Brahma's stock BUT I personally would not take the above modules in place of the real deal.

Well, we fully disagree.

I've done shootouts with my modified modules sitting directly next to the amp it's based on. In every single instance, the MTS modified module sounded identical and in the case of the Diablo (which was based on the first 500), better than a recent issue Rectifier.

I suspect that Sacred Groove would probably take a real 70's JMP over his own mod too... simply because it is vintage and kick ass! I could be wrong though..

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you're wrong.

Scott had never played through a '77 JMP when I went to him with the idea for the module. I've owned two '77's and have recorded them extensively. I know every detail about that amp, inside and out. Scott sent several files as he was developing it and I'd and respond with "Too bright", "Too much gain", "wrong midrange", etc. I sent him files of JMP's so that he could hear the settings himself, whether it was gain, bass, mid's - whatever.

It took several months but the MK22 dials in identical to a '77 JMP. Same settings (Bright OFF), same tone, same distortion - you name it. And the best part is that I didn't have to take it to have the filter caps, input and output transformers replaced, replace and re-bias all the tubes, etc.

I just plug in and know exactly what I'm going to hear each and every time. It's a beautiful thing.

And FWIW, vintage is often code word for "PITA". That has certainly been my experience.

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

That's it sir.. this calls for a clip side by side shoot out! :shock: I honestly would love to be convinced side by side.. the Tone King did a side by side of his jcm800 and the SL+ and I will admit those were similar. I'd love to hear some of these other amps side by side..

I'll take your word on the JMP then.. that MKII does sound pretty wicked.

 

[Mike P]

That's it sir.. this calls for a clip side by side shoot out! :shock: I honestly would love to be convinced side by side.. the Tone King did a side by side of his jcm800 and the SL+ and I will admit those were similar. I'd love to hear some of these other amps side by side..

I'll take your word on the JMP then.. that MKII does sound pretty wicked.

Have you heard the clips I've posted in the past year? If you're familiar with the amps that those particular modders have cloned, I can't see why there would be any reason to disagree.

 

[Nightdare]

If you want a Mesa Mk V, then I suggest you approach an amp modder and ask him to develop a module for you. That's exactly what I had done with the Sacred Grooves MK22, Diablo & Fish. And considering that I've not only owned all of the original amps and recorded them for years and am intimately familiar with the sound of each amp, I can absolutely guarantee those modules are identical.

So you can get all the features of a Mesa Mk V into a module?
That amp has a little more going on than just the features on the preamp

I owned an Engl and once I received a Salvation Mods Angel, I was able to replicate the tone to the point where in a blind test, I couldn't tell which amp was which.

ofcourse you won't find a switchable FX loop or noisegate on an MTS amp

This supposition is completely flawed.

1. You included a Midi switcher in Example A but not in Example B.
2. A Mesa/Boogie Dual Rectifier maps at $1,899.00 http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/RectDualHDBK/
3. A Marshall JVM maps at $2300.00 http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/JVM410H/

That's a total of $4,199.00, not $3,200. That's a $999.00 difference.

For starters, both "B" examples come with a footswitch and I compared an RM4 (hint "4")
to two 2 channel (2+2=4) amps

Now please find some prices for a single rec (though my apologies I didn't specify that amp more clearly) and an JVM210H and come back

Randall versus Actual amp:

1. Randall RM100 maps $1,199.00 and gives three full channels (amps), not two.

3 channels, compare apples to apples please, or that RM100 would need 7 channels to compete with a dual rec and a JVM410h

2. Randall modules map at $209.00 but can be purchased everywhere new for $189 or less.
3. Depending on the modder or the mod, you'll spend between $100 and $400 for a modification.

$100 only for small mods, not "imitations"

So, let's say you spend an average of $275 per mod. That puts your Randall system at $2651, if you purchase the modules brand new for full MAP of $209.

$4,199 for two amps or $2,651 for three?

To me, the answer is clear.

Well, it's clear that you need to read better and recalculate

But hey, for argument's sake
RM100 ($1200) + 3 modules ($180 a piece) modded to Mesa Boogie sounds (3x $220) = $2400
Real Mesa Mk V = $2100, Real Mesa Dual Rec = $1900
For a Marshall equivalent, put down a JVM410H which would be the same price, but has 1 channel extra

again, you can't channelswitch one module, so the multiple channels on the 'competitors' are lost on the RM100

What I certainly won't argue about is that the MTS line can take the (a) best feature/sound of an amp and combine it with the better features/sounds of other amps
Twin, JCM 800, Rectifier (though withouth true rectifier characteristics of the poweramp) in one box, Marvelous!
and it certainly is cheaper than buying all those amps seperately

...but it still doesn't come "cheap"

 

[Mike P]

...but it still doesn't come "cheap"

Cheap is relative.

I'm not going to nitpick your post. But with that said, let's agree to disagree.

I record at least a hundred guitar based tracks a year for several music libraries and production companies. Since switching to the MTS series, I've sold four amps and gained twelve amps. After the initial four amps were sold, I've probably invested about an additional $1,000. I purchased my RM100 brand new from a dealer for $750 shipped and I've purchased several used MTS modules for about $100 dollars each that were used for modification.

Not only is that an amazing trade off, but I don't have to maintain twelve separate amplifiers and their transformers, tubes and filter caps. I don't need to warehouse 12 amps and it's extremely easy to pop in and replace a Rectifier with an Orange or a Marshall with a Lone Clean, etc.

Many of the modules DO have multiple features (Hi/Low Gain, Boost/Cut mids, separate channels, etc.) that make them invaluable in a studio setting. And with guy like Anthony that are blurring the lines between amps and creating something entirely new, it's extremely exciting.

So the bottom line is that while you may be able to find faults with the modified modules, I can find five times the positives, if not more.

 

[crankyrayhanky]

We need The Captain - one of them-to come in here and straighten out these naysayers

I had a few amps-Marshalls, Mesas, Tiny Terror--these modded modules sound similar but are actually more clear. And unlike my Marshalls, it's not in the shop for transformer issues

 

[Disciple]

100% agree with Mike, I owned a pre 500 Mesa Dual Rec, Rivera Knucklehead and Marshall DSL100 (went to that from JCM800 previously) and sold all of them after getting into the MTS game years back the oldest one I hung onto was my pre500 Mesa which I sold earlier this year. Also have owned VHT, Fender, Bogner previously as well.

Scott's Diablo mod is right there with my Mesa I owned, nails that tone, but to me is more useable tone wise to dial in compared to the real thing.

There really is no reason to lug all those amps around like Mike said, to have the ability to get so close with these modded module to majority of the desired tones from the major amps is amazing. I can safely say I will never play another amp setup as my main rig, there's no comparison really in my eyes. Especially when you have different amp tones side by side in whichever MTS setup you have whether it be a RM100, RM50, RM22, RM4, RM1250 - when you can have a Marshall sound next to a Mesa, Soldano, ENGL, Bogner, VHT, Orange, Framus, Hi-Watt, Krank, Peavey, Fender, Vox etc...you can't get that with any other setup without investing in multiple amps which doesn't make sense to me.

To each their own, I'd rather invest 3K in a MTS rig with modded modules that can get me a good amount of amp tones compared to one or 2 real amps. Keep in mind not every amp's clean, mid or heavy gain sounds are the best for each person's style that's what's so great about the MTS you can select which mod fits each need the best and utilize that in a studio or live situation and not be limited to only use the tones in that particular amp and that amp only.

Plus I absolutely LOVE the fact I can bias my own tubes and combine tubes or go between 2 different tube types with my RT250 setup, that is a HUGE difference compared to other amps that only have one type of tube at a time or you have to take in to rebias everytime you change tubes and pay a tech fee....never again for me

 

[alowerdeep]

I dont see why there is any argument over this......in most cases the mts stuff is way cheaper...some of teh amps listed,like the JVM do have more channel options but they are also not all footswitchable and there is alot of crossover between the modes,making alot of the stuff kind of pointless...like the Mashall plus can essentially cover everything that a JVM can and the module is far less money than the amp..It may be very close of you are puttin gout your initial investment and have the buy the RM100 platfor,or the RM4,power amp,etc....but you have teh dded benifit of flexibility and when you get tired of said JVM all you need to do is invest in another preamp,which is definately more cost effective..even in alot of cases like those lower wattage boutique combos,you could by an rm22/rm20 and the modded module..not only would you save money(especially if you shop used)..gain you come out better because you are not "stuck" with that one amp or particular tone....so,any way you slice it you are going to save money....true,the initiial investment may be closer is a cost comparison,but overall you ae going to save a ton of money with mts stuff and you are not really sacraficing alot...Ive owned a ton of amps over the years and have tracked used gear for a long time and mts stuff is where it is at...save money and dont sacrafice tone,great for studios limited on space,just a win win...at very least we can all agree that this stuff sounds great and it s fun to own....

 

[Nightdare]

Not only is that an amazing trade off, but I don't have to maintain twelve separate amplifiers and their transformers, tubes and filter caps. I don't need to warehouse 12 amps and it's extremely easy to pop in and replace a Rectifier with an Orange or a Marshall with a Lone Clean, etc.

So the bottom line is that while you may be able to find faults with the modified modules, I can find five times the positives, if not more.

Well, I'm not here to complain about the MTS series, what you say there is spot on in this

especially the 'positives/negatives'
A JCM 800 has one of the most legendary crunches, but apart from that, the rest of its tones suck, and even an amp that does everything right only does the tricks it's been taught, forget a radical change in any of its 'predefined good things'

every amp has it's drawbacks or limitations, which you can't pull out and replace with something else

...except the MTS line
(though it's powersection could use some more options )

 

[Mike P]

(though it's powersection could use some more options )

Out of curiosity, what bums you out about the power section? You can use an octal tube of choice, mix and match, and easily bias without the hassle of removing the chassis and whatnot.

 

[m0jo]

(though it's powersection could use some more options )

Out of curiosity, what bums you out about the power section? You can use an octal tube of choice, mix and match, and easily bias without the hassle of removing the chassis and whatnot.

Let me take this one:
- individual bias of tubes
- half power mode or power scaling
- ability to bridge channels with one cab
- switchable negative feedback loop
- midi switching of the above three options

Not necessarily stuff I'm "bummed out" about, but it would make it just even more versatile.
Individual bias is something I am a little bummed out about, because one of my pairs is now has a 7mA difference between the two tubes.. could've been fixed with individual bias!

 

[Nightdare]

(though it's powersection could use some more options )

Out of curiosity, what bums you out about the power section? You can use an octal tube of choice, mix and match, and easily bias without the hassle of removing the chassis and whatnot.

Nothing really "Bumming" but look at what's possible with the modules

wouldn't you 'like' things like mojo posted? (he forgot ability to switch between SS or tube rectifier)

Versatility is in the Preamp, and though an RT2/50 has some very nice features (but is discontinued), there would be many things still possible there as well
(knowing very well this would come at a price probably too high for most of us)

 

[Captain MTS]

Captain MTS here to let you know that it's your dedication and belief in MTS that makes it so good...

My $0.02 -

Unfortunately, there was a similar argument to when Line 6-type products came along...I know, I know - MTS is NOT a modeling system and not Line 6...But wasn't Line 6's whole marketing based on the question "why buy all these amps when you can fit them all in one box?" People have basically learned that anything short of the original is a fail. They aren't wrong to say that because most products in that dept do and have failed. I also am aware of the digital vs. tube thing but let's leave that out for now.

There will always be opponents of any system that is non-traditional such as MTS. Some players would feel it to be ridiculous to play through a RM100 when their fave Marshall is in the same room. That isn't wrong at all. Nor is choosing the RM100 over the Marshall. You just have to know that with the MTS system there will be haters and people who want to cut it down. Sometimes this is because they're pissed that their Marshall got its ass kicked by a module but you will rarely hear such an admission.

In my experience, I've learned that people will hear what they want. If they want MTS to sound cheap and crappy- that's what they'll hear. If you want it to be spot-on - that's what you hear. I completely dig it and have subscribed fully to using it but I've stopped trying to defend it as it's a circular argument.

Bottom line is, stating that a Marshall module (or Mesa, Vox, etc) is better than a real Marshall is gonna start a ****-storm every time. And probably should. We have to face that MTS is kinda the generic version of the true amps. I use generic meds and other products and find them to be fine. Others swear they can tell a difference. Both are right to a point.

By the way, I'm not calling anyone in this discussion a hater. We're all here because we believe in this system. But it's never going to replace the real deal for most players. Sad, but true.

 

[m0jo]

I also am aware of the digital vs. tube thing but let's leave that out for now.

This is a bit easy though isn't it?

Because that is exactly what sets MTS apart from digital systems. While it might not get the exact 800 tone in your head (and there are a million different definitions of "JCM800 tone" ) it is still a full tube amp, and reacts and feels like a tube amp.

This is *exactly* why MTS does work.

Also:

People have basically learned that anything short of the original is a fail.

Really? Because I think many people have learnt that anything short of a real tube amp (like the original) is fail. You can't just forget about the digital vs. tubes argument and then state it must be not good enough because it is a "clone" .. that doesn't work at all IMO.

What I get from MTS is much better than the original amps.
Better tone at lower volumes, more tweakability, much more versatility with Anthony's mods.

 

[drewiv]

All I am suggesting is that they would sell more of the salvation modules if they priced them up in the 300$ range to compete with the Judge, The Malcolm etc... that's all.

They'd sell a lot more Ferraris if they priced them to compete with Opels. :wink:

 

[Jaded Faith]

This arguing is really going in a pointless circle. Let me provide a different perspective.

Gear is a personal experience and that's a beautiful thing. I work on hundreds of amps and modules a year for players of all walks of life, both filthy rich to dirt poor. One of the most rewarding parts of the work is talking tone with them and when the occasional local swings by the shop. Whether it was modding their real amp, a module or just servicing and re-tubing it's always cool to chat about what they like/dislike about the gear.

I personally own a respectable collection of amps and cabs. I also recently acquired a Line 6 POD XT Pro and have used it a ton this past month while writing a new album for getting ideas down and unique/odd tones. There is still my MTS rig and all of my modules. Every single thing serves a purpose and gets used regularly or it gets sold. But they all are great for what they are. Some are pricey amps I wouldn't want to live without and some are extreme bangs for the buck that have earned their meager price tags over and over again.

Remember tone is a personal experience. No one knows all the right answers because there are none. What is one man's trash is another's treasure. Please keep that in mind and you will probably find a lot of this bickering pointless. Just because someone champions something loudly and pound their chest over it doesn't mean it is gospel. Arguing back and forth with those who have a strong personal bias is also an exercise in futility. It didn't use to be like that here and I would hate to see it continue to decline.

 

[Captain MTS]

I also am aware of the digital vs. tube thing but let's leave that out for now.

This is a bit easy though isn't it?

Because that is exactly what sets MTS apart from digital systems. While it might not get the exact 800 tone in your head (and there are a million different definitions of "JCM800 tone" ) it is still a full tube amp, and reacts and feels like a tube amp.

This is *exactly* why MTS does work.

I know there's a vast difference between tube and digital amps. But the point wasn't to say whether or not MTS is legit. It is. Nor was I comparing it to the Line 6 products short of pointing out the slogans are similar and people notice that. Players have heard this before (Line 6, etc). The point is that MTS will never be a real Marshall, Mesa, etc. because it isn't. What's inside is what draws us, in the know, to it. Basically, you won't convince many tried and true Marshall fans that MTS is on par. And sorry, but their final argument- "It says Randall, not Marshall" hold true. It's an argument you really can't win as that is the trump card.

Also:

People have basically learned that anything short of the original is a fail.

Really? Because I think many people have learnt that anything short of a real tube amp (like the original) is fail. You can't just forget about the digital vs. tubes argument and then state it must be not good enough because it is a "clone" .. that doesn't work at all IMO.

What I get from MTS is much better than the original amps.
Better tone at lower volumes, more tweakability, much more versatility with Anthony's mods.

Again, I agree. I'm not personally saying MTS is inferior. Quite the contrary. But saying "it has tubes" doesn't convince a hater. Yes it's absolutely true but MTS will never have the big brand names on the mods (aside from Eggies) and some people shop by designer names rather than quality. I mean look at the prices of some boutique amps. I know many are awesome but are they worth their price? Depends on who you ask, someone who has one will tell you yes. The idea that MTS provides replicas or clones at the same or higher quality than the original can't be won.

Now if everyone bought using only their ears and not their eyes- there would be a lot more MTS users.

 

[m0jo]

Yep.
Although that is for a big part not down to the MTS design, it is because of markething by Randall.
I hope Egnater will really pick it up next year, then the stuff should get more in the picture.

@Rob, maybe you skipped through it quickly, but it was just a friendly disagreement in my eyes. No decline really

I agree that everything is a personal experience.

 

[Jaded Faith]

@Rob, maybe you skipped through it quickly, but it was just a friendly disagreement in my eyes. No decline really

I agree that everything is a personal experience.

It wasn't directed at you or anyone specific, although unfortunately it really didn't need to be either. I think in general there are several "loyalty camps" here lately. It seems the bickering is almost non-stop and consumes thread after thread. I know both myself and many forum members have discussed it privately as of late and feel similarly. It is really beginning to cast a shadow on open discussions and dilutes the honest and educational experience this forum once provided with obviously biased opinions.

Eventually that leads to a decline in interest to contribute quality information, engaging in open discussions and posting of clips.

 

[SALVAGED]

Remember tone is a personal experience. No one knows all the right answers because there are none. What is one man's trash is another's treasure. Please keep that in mind and you will probably find a lot of this bickering pointless. Just because someone champions something loudly and pound their chest over it doesn't mean it is gospel. Arguing back and forth with those who have a strong personal bias is also an exercise in futility.

This is right on. 8)