sound clips: grail vs recto modded vs recto 'orange' mod

[okstrat]

First, a general disclaimer: I left my E609 at the drummer's house, so this is one mic only (SM57). Into a M-audio Audiobuddy, then adobe audition, added a tiny bit of reverb, converted to mp3. Guitar used was an Eric Johnson sig strat with a hot rails in the bridge, cab was a JCM800 with GT75s, RM4 was the 'host' amp into an RT2/50 running ruby EL34s.

I set up the modules with the same settings - however, different preamp tubes can certainly change the sounds. With that in mind...

Here's my recto module, with the 'grail mods' and all switches set to match a stock grail.
http://members.cox.net/ampclips/rectograil.mp3

JKD's grail he was so kind to send me:
http://members.cox.net/ampclips/grail.mp3

My modded recto, running the 'orange' channel, all else as above.
http://members.cox.net/ampclips/rectoorange.mp3

Pete

 

[JKD]

Difference between the Rectograil and trueGrail is so slight it must be in the pre-amp tubes :twisted:

The Rectograil sounds fuller and slight less fizzy to me...could be old tubes in the Grail.

I dig the Recto Orange take tho'

What's in your Recto module?

 

[okstrat]

Difference between the Rectograil and trueGrail is so slight it must be in the pre-amp tubes :twisted:

The Rectograil sounds fuller and slight less fizzy to me...could be old tubes in the Grail.

I dig the Recto Orange take tho'

What's in your Recto module?

EH's.

Pete

 

[jmgman70]

I like that recto orange ,it's got some smooth to it!!!!!

 

[EWSEthan]

Recto Orange sound the best to me. What is a Recto Grail? Is it just a Recto modded to Grail specs? How different are they really? I thought the Grail was supposed to sound like Lynch's best Rectifier tone.

I guess Im wondering how much the Mesa Rectifier has changed over the years. If someone were to copy the circuit once, shouldnt that be enough? Why do we need multiple Rectifier based modules? (Pete this is NOT a knock on you, youre doing awesome work. Especially love the switch between Red and Orange modes) Im just trying to wrap my head around why 1 Rectifier based module isnt enough for Randall.

 

[okstrat]

Recto Orange sound the best to me. What is a Recto Grail? Is it just a Recto modded to Grail specs? How different are they really? I thought the Grail was supposed to sound like Lynch's best Rectifier tone.

I guess Im wondering how much the Mesa Rectifier has changed over the years. If someone were to copy the circuit once, shouldnt that be enough? Why do we need multiple Rectifier based modules? (Pete this is NOT a knock on you, youre doing awesome work. Especially love the switch between Red and Orange modes) Im just trying to wrap my head around why 1 Rectifier based module isnt enough for Randall.

Yep, a 'recto grail' is my recto modded to grail specs. JKD was kind enough to loan me his, basically a grail is a recto module with a tighter bass cap (.0005, or 500pf) and 150ohm resistors feeding each of the opto isolators (those little 6 pin op amp looking devices). It lessens the amount of raw gain, but also tightens it up a little and takes out some of the high end trash/fuzz from the signal. If you already dime the volume on your recto, you probably won't be replacing it with a grail anytime soon.

The other randall recto modules are all the same, just differently named. The egnater modules I can't comment on because I haven't messed with one - they are likely better than the Randalls.

I'm not sure how much the preamp itself has changed over the years, but I owned two racktifiers, an early two channel dual rectifier head, a 2000 single rectifier, and all three versions sounded very different. Also played a friend's three channel rectifier too. Not sure if differences were all in the power sections or switching or preamp tone-wise though. To do my orange mod, I looked at schematics for a 2 channel dual recto and went from there.

Pete

 

[JKD]

Recto Orange sound the best to me. What is a Recto Grail? Is it just a Recto modded to Grail specs? How different are they really? I thought the Grail was supposed to sound like Lynch's best Rectifier tone.

I guess Im wondering how much the Mesa Rectifier has changed over the years. If someone were to copy the circuit once, shouldnt that be enough? Why do we need multiple Rectifier based modules? (Pete this is NOT a knock on you, youre doing awesome work. Especially love the switch between Red and Orange modes) Im just trying to wrap my head around why 1 Rectifier based module isnt enough for Randall.

Seems like REV C, F and G of the Dual Recto are most widely found..with C being earliest and rarest of course. From memory I think Rev F to G is where they changed the fx loop from Series to Parallel and is supposedly somewhere around serial #500.

With an MTS pre-amp module you aren't mating to the same power amp so I'm guessin it's not as simple as looking at the original schematic.. allowances might have to be made to get the amp as close as possible to the original sound given the variations in design.

I'm sure there are compromises in EQ layout too...the tone controls on a Recto module don't interact exactly the same way they do on a real Rectifier.

There's also (hopefully) more money to be made with a licensed design? At least I hope the Lynch endorsement is helping to sell these amps....they still don't seem widely known :-/

 

[okstrat]

Recto Orange sound the best to me. What is a Recto Grail? Is it just a Recto modded to Grail specs? How different are they really? I thought the Grail was supposed to sound like Lynch's best Rectifier tone.

I guess Im wondering how much the Mesa Rectifier has changed over the years. If someone were to copy the circuit once, shouldnt that be enough? Why do we need multiple Rectifier based modules? (Pete this is NOT a knock on you, youre doing awesome work. Especially love the switch between Red and Orange modes) Im just trying to wrap my head around why 1 Rectifier based module isnt enough for Randall.

Seems like REV C, F and G of the Dual Recto are most widely found..with C being earliest and rarest of course. From memory I think Rev F to G is where they changed the fx loop from Series to Parallel and is supposedly somewhere around serial #500.

With an MTS pre-amp module you aren't mating to the same power amp so I'm guessin it's not as simple as looking at the original schematic.. allowances might have to be made to get the amp as close as possible to the original sound given the variations in design.

I'm sure there are compromises in EQ layout too...the tone controls on a Recto module don't interact exactly the same way they do on a real Rectifier.

There's also (hopefully) more money to be made with a licensed design? At least I hope the Lynch endorsement is helping to sell these amps....they still don't seem widely known :-/

We can get close with modules and mods, but there are a few things working against us:

Power section of the RM amps is going to be the same. This is why I like using my RT2/50, since I can load two different power tubes and have them switch with the preamps.

All the Randall and Egnater amps have a common first tube stage. Whether you're using a recto or a twin module, you share that first tube and it's always the same no matter what.

Amps that rely on power tube drive for the tone (like a trainwreck) are going to be pretty much impossible to duplicate. Of course, Bruce might prove me wrong, but some amps tone is so colored by the power section that you're going to be in trouble. One way around this is the RT2/50 setup, run two different cabs and crank one way up there with an attenuator inline. This would give you one 'saggier' channel and one tighter one. I played with running EL84 yellowjackets on one side and it made my Top Boost come alive.

The good thing is that most modern amps are a lot more 'front driven' meaning that a lot of the tone is derived from the preamp. Most Mesas, master volume Marshalls, VHT, Bogner, Peavey, etc would be much easier to 'clone' than the beforementioned Trainwreck amp.

All of this is just my opinion, but it makes sense to me.

Pete

 

[JKD]

Agreed...and the speakers/cabs you run are going to have a far greater effect on your overall tone IMO.

There's a world of difference between your G12T75s and my v30s and then there's Greenbacks etc.

 

[okstrat]

Agreed...and the speakers/cabs you run are going to have a far greater effect on your overall tone IMO.

There's a world of difference between your G12T75s and my v30s and then there's Greenbacks etc.

Yup! Mike Soldano says that too.

Pete

 

[Chad]

Thanks for the clips, Pete. Really appreciate all of the stuff you're doing!

BTW, if you ever get time, it'd be cool to hear the RealGrail and RectoGrail with the SAME preamp tubes. i.e. record one, then remove its tubes and put them in the other module. This would really level the playing field.

 

[goldwing68nv]

listening to the three clips posted,i like the Recto "Orange" clip best...seems like it has a fuller,thicker,slightly darker tone yet CLEAR!!! sounding real nice,Pete...btw,which bass-cap setting did you use on the "Orange"channel clip???

 

[okstrat]

listening to the three clips posted,i like the Recto "Orange" clip best...seems like it has a fuller,thicker,slightly darker tone yet CLEAR!!! sounding real nice,Pete...btw,which bass-cap setting did you use on the "Orange"channel clip???

Same one as the red clip... not sure. All I did was flip the switch, otherwise it was the same setting.

Pete