Egnater update

[Julia]

Well, here's the big rub. You've had falling real wages in the US for the past 10 years. High paying IT jobs got outsourced to India, or insourced with imported legal labor from India. There were a lot of other high paying jobs that depended upon them. This started in 1998. Then companies started moving operations to China where the labor is real cheap. This in turn took more high paying manufacturing jobs. And here we were worried about NAFTA? Mexico and Canada have expensive labor in comparison.

So if you're in business you need to sell products. If people can't afford to buy your products you don't sell any. Even our Boeing aircraft is only assembled in the United States. Heck the Tacoma Narrows bridge was made in Korea and assembled here.

And now it seems industry in many nations have moved manufacturing into China. It's kind of a dumping ground too. See they have no environmental regulations so all the toxins get dumped there. It'll even out ... eventually.

 

[Vince]

So much for a Global Conscience huh? You can say that it is a global economy and buy into all the hype but the facts are those people in those countries are being exploited. And yes... Japan makes high quality stuff and they pay their workers pretty well.... why is it no one is using Japan to outsource anymore? Cost... that's why. Greed drives companies.... no matter how much they pull in... they want more... at the price of jobs in their own country. They should be forced to live in those countries and see how they like it.

I admit I should not put all this on Bruce and it really wasn't my intention. I was just trying to make a point that sometimes the all mighty dollar shouldn't be the only driving force behind such a decision. When others comment it becomes a point, counterpoint issue and we lose focus.

Bruce, if you want to outsource to another country.... that's your choice and thanks for the update and communication... Please let us know which way you decide.

 

[ned]

Bruce has posted this on numerous message boards and everyone has assumed the modular stuff is going to be made in China. Yet nowhere does Bruce mention this is the case. Just because they will no longer be hand made by Bruce doesn't = China manufacturing.

 

[Vince]

No... but it usually does. :wink:

 

[Nightdare]

On the Jackson forum the Suhr Rasmus line was discussed in a similar way

Consensus was the same "Asia? MIC they mean"
and US peeps being nationalistic and (rightfully so) afraid of their wallet
want nothing to do with that

World trade could be a good thing if it was honest business

...there's no such thing as honest business anymore

 

[Mister Joshua]

How on earth did this go from Bruce telling us how things are going in his company to a discussion of politics and economics. Face it, if purple elves from the moons of Saturn built Egnater products, we'd still buy them. They are good amps. Thanks for the updates Bruce, I'm quite certain you'll do what is best for musicians and continue to make kick *** amps.

Peace, Joshua

 

[Vince]

Don't worry Joshua... I am sure he is ignoring it. :lol:

 

[The Truth]

Greed is what drove all our manufacturing out of this country. If you want to believe we are better off for it then wait a few decades when everything that built in this country is gone.

Why is it that Gibson and Fender are the two most desired instruments?

This is a very poor argument. Of the Fender line I would be very willing to bet that there are more Mexican, Korean, and Japanese Strats not to mention Squire's out there than American. Same for Epiphone. Quality control on both fronts are horrid and you have to be extremely selective to find a good one. I would never buy a guitar from either manufacturer sight unseen.

If you are going to talk about quality of American builds why not use Tom Anderson, John Suhr, or G&L? If you do a bit of research you'll also notice that they are all manufactured in CA. Do a bit more research on how many custom amplifiers are manufactured in CA while you're at it. This isn't a coincidence. The term "most desired" is subjective and not something that can be quantified. I'll take any of the manufacturers on my list over Fender or Gibson any day of the week. There will always be lines of guitars and amps manufactured here and especially in CA simply b/c of the amount of disposable income readily available by the average native consumer.

To get back on topic, I am hopeful that outsourcing production will also free up Bruce to reopen his amp building seminars and even potentially module building seminars. That to me is where I feel Bruce's talent would be better focused. Designing new circuits, molding eager young minds, and making revisions to existing products would yield more satisfying results than sitting in a room with a solder gun and a power drill. The man has too much much genius in him to be relegated to manual labor.

 

[bruce egnater]

I did not say China because there are possible US manufacturers that I am talking to. How about Mexico? Fender uses them? Marshall is made in England and are still probably the largest selling amp in the US.
Deizel, ENGL are made in Germany? Would that be OK? Malaysia? Japan? Vietnam (Ampeg?). I can name a dozen very good brands of guitar amps that are not made in the US but we still love them and buy them. My original post was not intented to instantly become a political or China bashing discussion. What would happen if Randall were to be made ouside the US. Would we see the same reactions?

 

[Vince]

Sure... I would say the same about any cut and run company.... I can't stand that mentality.... anything to increase the margin.

Marshall started in the UK... remember? :lol: And the others in their repectful countries.....

Sorry Mr. Truth... G&L manufactures their Tribute line overseas.... But not a big "Fender" type guitar fan anyway. The point was American made guitars pull higher dollar and are more desireable. I don't care if you buy up all the Chinese made guitars to ever come out of that country. I will take 1/5th that amount in American made guitars and be worth a hell of allot more.... and even more in the future. That's REAL value... :wink:


Really guys... all this is fine and nothing new. When I am ready for something else... I will research like I did on my current rig and buy accordingly. No big deal... right?

 

[Goldfish]

The term "most desired" is subjective and not something that can be quantified.

Of course you can. If demand was impossible to estimate very few companies would be able to stay in business.

 

[crev71]

I did not say China because there are possible US manufacturers that I am talking to. How about Mexico? Fender uses them? Marshall is made in England and are still probably the largest selling amp in the US.
Deizel, ENGL are made in Germany? Would that be OK? Malaysia? Japan? Vietnam (Ampeg?). I can name a dozen very good brands of guitar amps that are not made in the US but we still love them and buy them. My original post was not intented to instantly become a political or China bashing discussion. What would happen if Randall were to be made ouside the US. Would we see the same reactions?

I would say the majority of purchasers would be fine with a product made overseas. I think the highest concern of most people is that they want it to reflect the quality you guys have put into your products and I think all people familiar with your work will realize that that shouldn't be an issue. Granted, you will find people who will be disappointed with any decision of outsourcing manufacturing but peoples main concern would be with patriotism and stimulating the economy, and being honest, that isn't as big of an issue as people make it (not that the economy isn't a big issue, but there are several greater issues people need to address besides American's slight recession).

 

[bruce egnater]

I agree!!!!!!!!! I know Tom Anderson, John Suhr etc......and they all take pride in their American made products, as does Egnater. Our goal is, of course, to keep it here in the USA. Unfortunately, the realities of running a successful "small" business often forces unpopular decisions. I am doing my best to be able to have a US subcontract manufacturer build the Egnater modular amp line. I must wonder if the fact that they will not be hand built in our little shop in Berkley Michigan is the issue or is it that the work would potentially go out of the US? How do you feel about Budda manufacturing going to Peavey? Is that a sell out? Were they just going for maximum profit or were they just not able to keep up with the day to day issues of running a small business? I am in no way defending Asian manufacturers. If Egnater could be made in Mexico, would that be better?

 

[Vince]

Bruce... I don't think about it as better or worse in that way. Peavey is manufactured in the US and I have no problem with them... they run a tight ship although I haven't used their stuff since the 70's. Peavey probably expanded operations to meet quotas.... all this is a sound quality decision that added jobs and helps expand our economy.

When I see a strat for sale.... by looking at the price, I can tell you where it is made. If it's not Japanese or American.... they are cheap. The same goes with anything. Do you really want your beautiful quality equipment to be associated with cheap foreign labor? I know I wouldn't.

If Egnater can't stand as a quality American made product.... then there are bigger problems than where they are manufactured.

 

[johnodge]

Bruce,

Feel free to set up shop in Canada, preferably close by

 

[Julia]

Sorry, we assumed China because that's where everything seems to be going. I look on the back of practically everything and it says "Made In China". Electronics, computer components, recording gear, some instruments, whatever.

My Randall modules say "Made in USA". My Randall Lynch Box says "Made in China" right on the back.

Most Epiphones are now made in China. Japan is exporting labor to China. So is Korea.

We do have a number of small companies who can make amplifiers and amplifier components like modules here stateside. So let's sit tight and wait for the news from Bruce. Seeing the number of Egnater amps in stores and in use, I'd say his company grew quite fast in the past few years.

 

[hyenik]

building guitars, amps etc is not magic, mojo or other placebo bullshits.
It is "only" ideas and then craft. Japanesse guitars was crap 20 years ago, now it is higher middle class. Same way is Korean and same way will be Chinesse...... I don?t understand what is so big difference between mexican guys work in US and chinesse in China. And please, I don?t want to touch american pride, just comment....

And this funny 10$ which Vince wants to pay for US module.
Will you pay 50% more or 150% or.......??? Open your eyes
http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2008/Sep/Berkley_Rock_City.aspx
And all is Bruce?s decision, his company, his responsibility and his fair play, that anounce it very clear.

 

[Vince]

Man... reading comprehension really isn't your strong suit. $10 extra in labor vs what was spit out in a foreign country. How long do you figure it takes to build one of those once you are proficent at it?

 

[Smokey]

(Hoping to pull this thread back into line)
Bruce,
Thanks for taking the time to chat to us here on the forum and also letting us know what is happening with Egnater direct from the source. Your products, decisions and tone speak for themselves and I for one, hope that whatever tough business decisions you have had to make, still allow you to continue your innovation as well as make it readily accessibile to the world. Keeping up the good work, I know that all of us players here (Randall and Egnater alike), would not be as happy with our rigs and tone if it wasn't for your ideas and concept in the first case.
Cheers

 

[Mister Joshua]

Hey Smokey,

Already tried to get this thread back on topic before. Didn't work very well. I still think if they are made in china, japan, canada, or the moon they'll be great amps and everyone who is bitching on this thread will still buy them. I might be wrong. But i do appreciate all that Bruce has done and still feel he will do what is right and make great amps.

Peace, Joshua