How much goes into a mod?

[RRR]

I know it's a blanket question but I'm wondering how much is involved in lot of these mods. I've noticed many are kinda pricey and probably involve tube swaps being the bigger investment of the modder. Outside all of that I know its bad form to show guts shots as well. I'm wondering how much of it's paying for a faceplate and knobs for a couple resistor value swaps and upgraded caps potentially. Anyone elses two cents on buying mods vs, doing em yourself, vs unmodded modules?

Kinda wondering as I've ventured over here and have been into the DIY API 500 scene for quite some time but it's a little different because many guys are offering custom PCB's as well. Which has me wondering why many modders don't offer some of these things as kit's instead of making em ship it out across the pond or where ever you choose.
-R3

 

[Jaded Faith]

Well it depends on who's doing you work for you. We all do our own thing and prices vary based on that and demand.

I work on the modules with a philosophy of tuning and bending the existing circuits to get the most out of them without rebuilding them entirely. Three years of working on these modules and thousands of dollars in parts later I am offering my best work to date now.

My prices have always stayed the same from day one: the cost of parts plus 3 hours of labor at the same rate I make at my day job. $100 is a fair price and not much different than you would pay for a stompbox.

I do not offer custom faceplates directly (I point folks over to Sacredgroove for that) and the only visual upgrades I do are LED and knob changes. I like this approach because I can offer customers access to great tone at a very affordable price with the quickest turnaround times possible. For me, it's about feel and tone more than what it looks like both in MTS and other gear.

One other thing you pay for is experience. I have modded a LOT of these modules and stock over $1000 in parts at all times (I mod MTS gear here and other amps through the music store I manage). The mod may take an hour and a half, but I can EASILY spend just as much time tuning it after that. I also offer very affordable repairs. These things can break if packed poorly before shipping and many folks who try their hand at mods break their modules. It's not hard to mod these things, but it's just as easy to ruin them and have an expensive paperweight on your hands.

 

[khingpynn]

If you are looking a smallt component pricing it's minimal ...labour is more but I believe you pay for skill and expertise. Performing the mod and cct knowladge. We can all develop the skills and knowladge if we choose if not we hire others. Need you house reno's done but can plumb or do electrical... hire guys who can.

 

[Jeff Hilligan]

As with many things you buy, my mod prices are for my experience and ears, then parts, faceplates, knobs, shipping and my happy outlook!

 

[Lucius]

Yah, is definately not the changing of the components but rather the experience to select the "right" components. Pretty much any monkey can solder but that isn't really what you are paying for. Cheers, Lucius

 

[RRR]

Wow, alot of prompt posts from movers and shakers in the MTS mod world. Thanks. I mentioned this earlier but I was wondering if any of you had considered offering these mods as a kit? What did you consider and why did you or did you not decide to do it. How do you feel it would impact your current format? I would definately understand wanting more bench time rather than operating as a shipping center if that is a fear.

There's another forum that I'm not going to plug specifically that I'm a member of in which that is exactly what they do and have been doing for years for the pro audio world. Lots of 500, neve, ssl projects over there. If you guys were ever interested in starting from the ground up on your own pcb it'd be a good way to get into it to. I can give the info via pm but I think anything else here would be in bad taste.

I'm interested in hearing your opinions of the above in making the MTS series as diverse as possible and available to anyone with a soldering iron. Maybe mods kits based on skill level or a dvd on understanding the base circuits and how to make educated decisions on mods of the choosers own and do's do nots.
Just food for thought,
-R3

BTW if I'm beating a dead horse just say so, I've just not been able to find answers to the questions with the search function outside a few.

 

[Jaded Faith]

I had toyed with the thought, but opted against it for a few reasons. Trust me, if I could sell you the knowledge and parts for half the price and 200% less time and effort than I have to put into modding a module I would! :lol:

One reason against it were module revisions throughout the years that are impossible to nail down. I have had as many as 4 Plexi's on the bench at the same time and 3 of the 4 were different! Makes it tough to say "do these 10 steps and you're there"....there are many variables.

There are tolerances to the parts on all modules and they need to be tuned. I rarely have modded more than a few modules the same way twice. It's ALWAYS a few rounds of tweaking by ear and trying several parts in any position before the green light comes on and the kool-aid smile comes out.

Another nice benefit is I can talk to the customer and tweak it to his tastes based on his gear. I manage a few music stores and have access to tons of gear. I own a bunch of amps myself and can borrow the real deal to A/B against for tuning purposes if I don't have something.

I also offer tweaks and touch-ups for little or no cost to owners and second-hand buyers of my work. That's a hell of a deal really. You might buy something I did and not dig it, but it was tweaked to the original owners request and your needs may vary. It's always worth dropping me a line to ask about re-mods. How many manufacturers offer that? (Hint: almost none! I deal with warranty claims all the time and often repair many amps for my store customers myself).

Sorry for the long response! I guess to say it short and sweet: I like the customer service and artistry side of the work. That's most of what I offer you.

 

[eedude]

...If you guys were ever interested in starting from the ground up on your own pcb

hi R^3, doing our own PCB is very attractive and not particularly complicated. The obstacle is that it is a patent violation if one were to do so. The architecture is patented under US 6376761. So for now we have to get our art from Egnater and licensed manufactures....

 

[RRR]

Exactly the type of responce i was looking for JF. Not long winded at all. Appreciated.

eedude-
A different pcb layout with compatible connections would be a violation? Long as your not selling it as egnater or randall I wouldnt see a problem. I figure guys on here are taking existing modules, modding them, then renaming them. Both seem to have a level of conflict. If it was advrotized as a mod I fail to see a problem. As it is a mod on existing platform.

Not trying to stir the pot, just my logic. It's a pretty common practice in most botique gear even guitar. Revamped marshalls being sold under X name or a return to a original circuit on a pedal that isnt produced anymore... Then again that might be why the Pro audio guys get away with it because they are mostly selling them as kits. What you do with them is your deal and all.

 

[eedude]

eedude-
A different pcb layout with compatible connections would be a violation?

how does the PCB layout being different exempt you from the patent? The layout is not the patent, it is a copy write. The patent is the concept. Duplicate the concept, violate the patent.

 

[m0jo]

eedude-
A different pcb layout with compatible connections would be a violation?

how does the PCB layout being different exempt you from the patent? The layout is not the patent, it is a copy write. The patent is the concept. Duplicate the concept, violate the patent.

Simplification: anything that plugs into the MTS system and works = violation of patent since the patent is on the system itself.

On the modding:
What Jaded Faith says is correct, a big part of the price is for the experience and knowhow of the modders.
This is not a "swap these 4 components with another" type thing, a lot of times it requires modifying the entire circuit.

This is where I get to Salvation Mods.
What Anthony does is actually strip most of the module down and engineer another preamp circuit in there.
This means there is some big modification going on, which also means there is a lot more to tweak and perfect.
Then there are all the extra features; noise gate, tight switch, eq switches, voicing switches and even full channel switches within a module.
That's a lot of circuit to go into a module.

You can do mods yourself, if you can you definitly should! But don't underestimate how much there is to it.
I've done modding on some of my own pedals, it's a lot of fun to experiment with, but unless you really understand what's going on that's all it is, experimentation.
It can lead to awesome results though (like my custom Muff Fuzz synth distortion haha)

 

[Jeff Hilligan]

The patent is the actual edge connection of the pre amp to the power amp, creating a system. So anyway you try to do it, you will be in violation of the patent!

I had this discussion with Bruce many time and it boils down to this. If a module kit was offered by Egnater and you build it shitty and then sell it, it looks like Egnater built it and then Egnater gets the bad rep online! I have the same feelings. If you build it great then no problems but if you don't I get all the bad press!

 

[RRR]

I'm not disagreeing I'm just trying to understand thats all. Where the patent starts and stops thats all. Technically a guitar plugs into the module in a way but its not a violation yah know. So the patent is on the system starting at the edge of the card connecting into the system itself. is what I'm getting. I have to meditate on this for a bit lol. Some good chat on here for sure. I'm glad I'm not the only one that's wondered. I totally understand someone offering subpar work on a kit defacing the designer would do some damage.

 

[m0jo]

The patent is the actual edge connection of the pre amp to the power amp, creating a system. So anyway you try to do it, you will be in violation of the patent!

I had this discussion with Bruce many time and it boils down to this. If a module kit was offered by Egnater and you build it shitty and then sell it, it looks like Egnater built it and then Egnater gets the bad rep online! I have the same feelings. If you build it great then no problems but if you don't I get all the bad press!

Just a free thinking question:
Do you think Bruce would be open to licensing it to other parties?
Or does Randall have an exclusive deal?

 

[Jeff Hilligan]

The patent is the actual edge connection of the pre amp to the power amp, creating a system. So anyway you try to do it, you will be in violation of the patent!

I had this discussion with Bruce many time and it boils down to this. If a module kit was offered by Egnater and you build it shitty and then sell it, it looks like Egnater built it and then Egnater gets the bad rep online! I have the same feelings. If you build it great then no problems but if you don't I get all the bad press!

Just a free thinking question:
Do you think Bruce would be open to licensing it to other parties?
Or does Randall have an exclusive deal?

Exclusive to Randall.

 

[m0jo]

The patent is the actual edge connection of the pre amp to the power amp, creating a system. So anyway you try to do it, you will be in violation of the patent!

I had this discussion with Bruce many time and it boils down to this. If a module kit was offered by Egnater and you build it shitty and then sell it, it looks like Egnater built it and then Egnater gets the bad rep online! I have the same feelings. If you build it great then no problems but if you don't I get all the bad press!

Just a free thinking question:
Do you think Bruce would be open to licensing it to other parties?
Or does Randall have an exclusive deal?

Exclusive to Randall.

I thought so

 

[SacredGroove]

I do not offer custom faceplates directly (I point folks over to Sacredgroove for that) and the only visual upgrades I do are LED and knob changes.

Thanks! I appreciate that. I've done a lot plates with your name on them. 8)

 

[RRR]

The patent is the actual edge connection of the pre amp to the power amp, creating a system. So anyway you try to do it, you will be in violation of the patent!

I had this discussion with Bruce many time and it boils down to this. If a module kit was offered by Egnater and you build it shitty and then sell it, it looks like Egnater built it and then Egnater gets the bad rep online! I have the same feelings. If you build it great then no problems but if you don't I get all the bad press!

Just a free thinking question:
Do you think Bruce would be open to licensing it to other parties?
Or does Randall have an exclusive deal?

Exclusive to Randall.

Know if there is some sort of statute of limitations or anything on it?

 

[Jeff Hilligan]

The patent is the actual edge connection of the pre amp to the power amp, creating a system. So anyway you try to do it, you will be in violation of the patent!

I had this discussion with Bruce many time and it boils down to this. If a module kit was offered by Egnater and you build it shitty and then sell it, it looks like Egnater built it and then Egnater gets the bad rep online! I have the same feelings. If you build it great then no problems but if you don't I get all the bad press!

Just a free thinking question:
Do you think Bruce would be open to licensing it to other parties?
Or does Randall have an exclusive deal?

Exclusive to Randall.

Pretty sure a new deal was done with Randall when they were sold and the patent still has many years on it.

Know if there is some sort of statute of limitations or anything on it?

 

[Rod]

Well, I want to personally that Jaded Faith and Sacred Groove for their tryly toneful mods, bringing the MTS line way up to Boutique tones that rival the sounds of any Blues/Rock amp made,.I don't play metqal, but I've heard the same comments from them as well