MTS vs the real thing

[blacksun]

Of course this has been dealt with before, but I would be interested to hear everybody's thoughts about this year 2014.

Personally I recently sold a Suhr Badger 18 since I realised that even though this is an amazing amp, my M4 through its Fx loop just blew it away, not just through versatility but I mean tone-wise!

The suhr has a fantastic blues tone and feel, and of course stellar build quality and I truly liked it but still I turned out selling it after only about 6 months. The M4 with the modded modules, the preamp section that is, was the last missing part of the equation missing in the badger to reach perfection.

To me, the problem with mts is the randall part, speaker cabs (in combos) and especially their power sections. Pair up a RM4/M4 with a VHT/Fryette or an ENGL power amp and reach a whole other level.

I love the idea of making it easy to change tubes yourself though and being a simple guitarist with no tech skills what so ever I'm still interested in acquiring a Randall rt 2/50 if someone has got one for sale. PM me if you got one to sell in this dying age.

 

[blacksun]

Perhaps I should add I'm talking about those really good modded modules, some mods truly do the job way better than others..

Any other mts vs real amp thoughts?

 

[withmittens]

I'm pretty sure as well that the problem is with the Randall Power amp. I've never been one for tight and focused type of sound, IE, new metal, I'm for more of a raw, vintage sound.

Now that I've acquired an RM4, I am doing lots of research on a power amp. While I could mod the hell out of one of my current amps, It seems better to look for a pre-existing amp.

The thing is, coming from vintage gear and preferring that sound, I have no idea what rack amp will give me the sound I'm looking for. Is it better to take one of my old amps and have it built into a Mono amp.....put in a loop and bias points and use it with the RM4......

I guess the most available rack amps are VHT, Fryette, Engl, Carvin, Randall, and Mesa. I think all of these are geared toward metal? so will be tight and focused....not sure. Also, they are very expensive.

The modded preamps (MTS) that I have, even through the Randall RM50 sound better than any other amp I have used since getting into this thing, except maybe and old JCM800. Better than a Matchless, better than various Fenders, Budda. There is more clarity and tonal options, also it is infinitely more controllable to sit in a band mix. The problem is the Randall power amp and the missing organic magic. I'm quite sure I'm the only one who notices, ie, live, at practice..etc..

but what to do for power? How does the Egnater power section compare? I called Heyboyer and they said they have Bruce's transformers available and suggested an OT swap for the most difference. Does the Mod50 have the magic, who has played both? Is it worth it to have Bruce mod the RM50? or Dave for that matter?

I'm looking for a RT/50 in the long run and could see modding that with different trannies, or some other mumbo jumbo in the future. long term plan

I guess overall am very happy with the MTS, but I do often look for a power solution as I think a lot of folks here do. It does also occur to me that we may all have a similar affliction of tweakers dissatisfaction, that we are all in the MTS game so that we can have endless possibilities, which leads us down the road of always looking for more...

 

[Mattfig]

I'm looking for a RT/50 in the long run and could see modding that with different trannies, or some other mumbo jumbo in the future. long term plan

Far too much personal info...Who you mod with is your own biz but you shouldn't post that you mod with Michele Obama for security reasons...

 

[withmittens]

ah the tranny joke. It will be perfected here on this forum

 

[kc2eeb]

The RT2/50 phase inverter and power tube circuit is practically a copy of a Fender Super Reverb. The coupling cap values to the control grids are different values.

 

[withmittens]

So this is a different power amp than the RM50? not related?

 

[kc2eeb]

The power section of the RM50 is basically the same as one side of the RT2/50.

 

[withmittens]

The RT2/50 phase inverter and power tube circuit is practically a copy of a Fender Super Reverb. The coupling cap values to the control grids are different values.

The coupling caps....are there known mods to get various differences?

 

[kc2eeb]

What is different from a Super is the expanded Presence (i.e. negative feedback circuit) in the Randalls.

 

[withmittens]

What is different from a Super is the expanded Presence (i.e. negative feedback circuit) in the Randalls.

So, would a mod toward the Super circuit in the RM50 improve things if one wanted a more vintage responding amp? or is it not worth the trouble?

 

[kc2eeb]

The coupling caps block DC to the control grid(s)of the power tubes and their value adjust what frequencies pass. The RT2/50 use .022mfd and some Fenders used .1 mfd. The more capacitance the more"bass" passes the the power section.

 

[withmittens]

and the presence and density controls on the RM try to vary this capacitance?

 

[kc2eeb]

That's very subjective and also depends on what the speaker set up is. Fenders actually used .005 mfd in the open back Twin Reverb since the open back cabinet would give enough back loading to the speakers to keep them from distorting at high volume. Remember, Fender was looking for a clean sound. In a closed back cab, you can pass more bass frequencies. .022mfd was probably chosen as an overall compromise, especially when the major market was for "metal" players who want it "tight" and "focused."

 

[kc2eeb]

The presence and density control are in the negative feedback loop from the OT to the phase inverter. They allow a choice of what frequencies feedback to the PI and which are shunted to ground. The "loosest" or most "presence" is with the least amount of feedback i.e. quicker distortion.

 

[kc2eeb]

To be clear, the coupling caps from the Plates of the PI are NOT in the presence and density circuit.

 

[withmittens]

So, with my lack of technical understanding, what I'm getting is, The RM50 power amp is essentially a Super Reverb power amp with a negative feedback loop. The Density and Presence controls lift the feedback loop circuit in varying degrees, essentially allowing a variable modification of the Super Reverb Tube amp circuit. When the Presence is all the way up, the Negative feedback is lifted, when the Density is up.... I don't know.

Seems there is no mod to be done here?

 

[kc2eeb]

Essentially, yes. The Super Reverb does have a negative feedback loop with an 820 ohm fixed resistor in series with the feedback line from the output transformer to the PI. There is no presence control on the Super Reverb, my error. If you made the 820 ohm resistor variable, let's say 10K it would become a presence control. The more it BLOCKS the feedback from the OT, the MORE presence you will have. In the RM50 one knob, I think the presence, at it's most "present" setting cut's off most of the feedback and the density is a variable bandpass filter that rolls off some of the treble passing to the presence control. Been a while since I've had mine apart. You can actually use your ears to tell; the more hiss, the less feedback and the quicker distortion.

 

[withmittens]

yes, I think I can hear that. thank you for that info, very interesting. I will continue to explore the settings with this in mind. of course, the louder tha amp is, the better it sounds and the more it reacts....better it "feels"

50 watts really is a beast and I doubt any 50 watt amp will sound good at low volume.

Seems then the most important mod could be the Output transformer.

wondering which ones would make a diff

but back to my original question... why would someone prefer an Engl amp over the Randall? or a Mesa?

sorry if I hijacked this thread from OP

 

[JKD]

Honestly, I think the 50W is the better sounding of all the amps in the range, it's fairly warm and responsive at non ear bleeding volumes and doesn't have that overtone of the 100W.