Tubes...Again...

[Mike P]

By your logic, why not just buy the cheapest guitar cables available? Hell, I've got a $1000 amp and $1000 guitar, why do I need to spend any more money on a decent cable?

Cables are a myth.

If you're dealing with a decent cable under 50', the differences are imperceptible.

 

[crankyrayhanky]

I never heard much difference in the modern day tung sol vs JJ vs electro harmonix....I'd be curious to hear clips of any run of the mill tube vs. an expensive one. Best to try a couple of run of the mill tubes, as I would think the quality control is worse for the cheap ones, at least give them a fighting chance

I've had talks with a NOS local dealer; I've considered buying some hi end 6L6s, but my money always seems to go elsewhere

 

[Mike P]

I never heard much difference in the modern day tung sol vs JJ vs electro harmonix....I'd be curious to hear clips of any run of the mill tube vs. an expensive one. Best to try a couple of run of the mill tubes, as I would think the quality control is worse for the cheap ones, at least give them a fighting chance

I'd LOVE to be able to post clips of ARS tubes vs. other tubes but sadly, I won't spend my money elsewhere because my amp and modules sound KILLER.

I've had talks with a NOS local dealer; I've considered buying some hi end 6L6s, but my money always seems to go elsewhere

That's a good thing.

This tube thing is nonsense. I've been using cheap Ruby 6L6's and it hasn't stopped me from getting a great tone, nor has it been a problem getting tracks placed in numerous TV shows or in two upcoming national NASCAR commercials this racing season on Fox and other networks.

If you're having issues with Ruby's or EH or Tung Sols or ARS, etc., the issue lies elsewhere.

 

[Mattfig]

Again, to each their own...It's all in what you like...I think Mike P makes reasonable points albeit a tad overstated IMHO...Glad you have killer tone without tube tweaks...Do you really believe that there are no tubes out there that could improve your tone even a little? I have many great tones here too- and yes, some have been improved with the right tube combo...Yep, they would still be great with ARS tubes, but that doesn't mean improvements are not possible or minor at best..Saying higher grade tubes are "completely unnecessary" as well as cables sounds a tad off base to me...But that's just me...I understand there's a ton of ***** in the signal chain that needs to be addressed before tubes...I've got all that covered...So tubes are next....Perhaps the day will come when I realize that there's no difference in tubes...But not today...

I get your point Mike and love this debate anyway...I'm always going to tinker with this stuff because it's fun and yields results that I can appreciate...I'm not gonna make clips of tube changes and such as net video/audio would not allow the subtle improvements to be fully heard + I just have too much else to do...

We'll just have to agree to disagree...I understand that you feel very confident in your statements and that's cool...But it kinda seems like you are talking down to us "cork sniffer" tube guys...I get that you do music for a living and I totally respect and admire that...I have to have a day job too but that doesn't invalidate my experience...

Just my .02...
8)

 

[spooch]

Exactly. I was very interested in this conversation, and if someone is not, could you please let us uneducated people have it without being made to feel like we are idiots?

Congratulations on having clips. I don't have clips. I also don't have a press photo or a website. I am just a jag-off who plays in his bedroom for fun. I bow to your superior presence.

 

[sepherus]

I don't personally agree with the "don't bother" thing. I must say though, some amps it makes a significant difference others it is make almost no difference. While decent quality tubes will produce good sounds, there can be variation depending on your amp/module. Some of us like to exploit that.

You want a super picky amp, pick up a VHT/Fryette Deliverance. It will sound good with anything decent but it really comes alive when you find the right cables, overdrive (if you use one) and guitar/pickups/strings. I've never had an amp that all those things made so much difference in before or since. Even the order in which I used cables made a noticeable change in sound with it. God I wish I still had that thing though. I just needed and effects loop or I probably would.

 

[Hamner1]

I'll say that different tubes can make a significant difference. I am not very experienced with multiple brands of tubes. I'm more of a set it and forget it kind of person. But I would think maybe it is that batch of that brand of tube that makes a difference. Seriously how many factories are there that produce tubes... 2 or 3. And likely the multitude of brands are just being rebranded. Unless I am missing something, such as the tube company (JJ, Ruby, GT, EH, etc) is getting a multitude of tubes, running tests, & then saying these fit our perameters brand them ours, I wonder if different brands really makes a difference. I have a GT 12AU7 & a chinesse 12AU7, I cannot tell the difference. Maybe if I had good recording equipment I might be able to tell the difference. But just blasting my ears from the cab, nothing different. Now pop a 12AX7 in that same place deffinately a difference (which makes sense).

I'm going to be a pansy *** & ride the fence on this issue. :lol: I agree with both Mike & Matt. I agree with Mike in that I don't think more expensive will mean better, nor do I think a $50 preamp tube is the answer. With that as musicians it is in our nature & culture to tinker, to tweak, and all around mess with ****. If that means you spend $50 on a tube & it makes your tone, to you, killer than it was worth it.

 

[Mike P]

Again, to each their own...It's all in what you like...I think Mike P makes reasonable points albeit a tad overstated IMHO...Glad you have killer tone without tube tweaks...Do you really believe that there are no tubes out there that could improve your tone even a little?

Overstated? Me?

I'm certain that there are tubes available that would change the tone of the amp but considering that my modified modules sound exactly as they should, it's not a burning issue for me. When something isn't right, it isn't right. I'm not going to chase down tubes and spend ungodly amounts of money in places where it's not necessary. I'll just sell the "offending" piece and move on.

For example, I have four bass guitars. When it comes time to record, I choose a bass that fits best for the particular song. The bass is plugged into an older Ampeg V4B, which is a 100 watt version of an SVT, perfect for recording. I have a Randall iso cab outfitted with an Eminence B102 dual cone speaker with a Mojave 201 and an i5 going to a Vintech 1272 mic preamp and a Jeff Turzo Overstayer compressor. For the record, I've been through three different speakers and nine different mics and mic combinations to capture the tone correctly.

The amp immediately sounded great with my Musicman Stingray 5. About a year later, I added a Fender '51 reissue Precision bass made of swamp ash. It didn't sound great, so I replaced the nut, the bridge and the pickup. The sound is clearly different than the MM5 but definitely on the same "level". About a year later, I added a '62 reissue Jazz bass. It's a beautiful bass but it wasn't "right", either. I replaced the nut, the bridge and the pickups. After another year of recording that bass, it still didn't sound great, so I replaced the pickups again, which finally put it on the same "level" as the MM5 and '51 P. A year or so later, I added a Fender Fretless Jazz bass and used the same model pickups and bridge originally used in the '62 reissue and it sounded great immediately.

Why am I describing all of this? Well, because when I record, I use different basses for the different genres of music I create. I never change the dials on the amp. Never. I haven't touched them since 2004. When I need a different sound, I change instruments or use the volume, tone, pickup mix, etc. Why? Because the amp isn't the issue.

Same thing goes for the Randall modules (or any amp manufacturer): If you're dealing with what's considered traditionally to be a great sounding amp and amp design, yet the amp doesn't sound "right", 99.99% of the time, the issue lies elsewhere.

I'm currently going through this situation again but with a guitar. I haven't owned a Floyd Rose equipped guitar since 1993 and am suddenly in need of one for my work. I checked out all of the available production guitars but didn't care for any of them. So, I decided to build a Warmoth strat-style guitar with an original Floyd Rose. It has an alder body with a birdseye maple neck and Indian rosewood fingerboard. I assembled the entire guitar, wired it up with two Duncan '59's and a push pull switch. It looks awesome and sounded amazing acoustically. It's the loudest and clearest sounding guitar out of the nine I own.

But once I plugged it own, I was extremely disappointed. It was mushy and muddy on the bottom end, the high end wasn't articulate. I knew for a fact that it wasn't tubes or the amp, etc., because the other eight guitars are sound great through the various amps. So I called Seymour Duncan and they're sending a Jazz for the neck and a JB TB for the bridge and hopefully, it'll solve the issue.

Once again, the issue wasn't the amp or modules. The issue lie elsewhere.

I have many great tones here too- and yes, some have been improved with the right tube combo...Yep, they would still be great with ARS tubes, but that doesn't mean improvements are not possible or minor at best..Saying higher grade tubes are "completely unnecessary" as well as cables sounds a tad off base to me.

IMO, either an amp sounds great or it doesn't. If it doesn't sound great right out of the box with my guitars (or bass), I'm not going to chase down exotic tubes in the hopes that the sound improves. I know exactly what a JMP50 is supposed to sound like. I know exactly what an Engl Powerball is supposed to sound like. I know exactly what a Dual Rectifier is supposed to sound like. If I plug in and it doesn't sound right, I'm not going to spend $25-$50 per tube in an attempt to make a module sound right.

As for cables, if you're dealing with cable lengths less than 50 foot, there is no audible difference. It's silly to pay $50 for some dopey Monster cable when a $15 dollar Whirlwind will provide the same exact results. If you're dealing with 10 foot or less, it becomes more ridiculous. It's all marketing nonsense. And this applies to A/V as well. Anyone that spends $50 dollars or more for an "oxygen free" Monster HDMI cable is a sucker, especially when you can go to monoprice.com and purchase the same cable for $5 dollars.

Now, when you're talking about studio cables, it most certainly makes a difference, especially if it's a home studio. I only use Canare Quad Star cable in my studio for RF rejection. It's exactly the same as the Mogami Quad Cable but a little less expensive. But I'd never drop $75-$100 for a 20 foot guitar cable. Besides being completely unnecessary, it's a waste of money.

As far as "higher grade tubes", well, most amps are not designed with "higher grade tubes" in mind. Using an "audiophile" tube that's commonly used in high end home stereo systems may work fine in a preamp but that wasn't the designer's intent.

And quite honestly, I'm a traditionalist. I WANT a Marshall to sound exactly like a Marshall. I want a Rectifier to sound EXACTLY like a Rectifier. I want an Orange to sound EXACTLY like an Orange.

We'll just have to agree to disagree...I understand that you feel very confident in your statements and that's cool...But it kinda seems like you are talking down to us "cork sniffer" tube guys...I get that you do music for a living and I totally respect and admire that...I have to have a day job too but that doesn't invalidate my experience...

Just my .02...
8)

Again Matt, I'm not trying to insult or offend you. But the purpose of your quest is quite different than most people. I am fully content with a great sounding amp and module, whether it's a Marshall, Engl, Cobra, Rectifier, AC30, etc. I don't need those amps to sound "better" than they sound, nor do I need or want them to sound different than they're traditionally supposed to sound.

And again, that's not a knock on you personally or otherwise. I'm of the belief that it's unnecessary to spend $25-$50 dollars per tube in order for an amp to sound great or even amazing.

And I'm totally cool to disagree. Different viewpoints are what makes this forum great!

 

[Mattfig]

Thanks for the in-depth reply Mike...Puts things into better perspective...I have many instruments as well and do the same thing for recording...They all have their place...I am also an avid pickup enthusiast...For my money, Lollar pickups are the best in general...

And for clarification, I'm using my MTS rig in a home studio exclusively...And while I don't have as much on my plate as you do as far as production work, I have several active contracts myself...I just completed a song that will be in an upcoming B-Movie...lol...But true....

Anyway, that's why I was surprised about your cable comment...'Cause shielding is key to me...For live stuff I don't even use MTS...And the amp I use is one of those that sounds great with any tubes...I only change them to refresh the tone if necessary...I nitpick MTS stuff to death...Tubes are just one factor and we all approach things differently...Recording technique surely takes a front seat too...From the sound of it, that multi mic system is working well for you...Got any pics or more info? If it's a trade secret I understand....

Now I'm off to buy some 75 dollar tubes to put in my 200 dollar Bugera head...

 

[Julia]

I stopped chasing tone and decided to practice.

 

[Hamner1]

Now I'm off to buy some 75 dollar tubes to put in my 200 dollar Bugera head...

WTF. I've been lied to, I thought Bugera was top of the line stuff. :lol:

 

[Mattfig]

Now I'm off to buy some 75 dollar tubes to put in my 200 dollar Bugera head...

WTF. I've been lied to, I thought Bugera was top of the line stuff. :lol:

:lol: Actually I had a Bugera 333XL that I kinda dug...Not enough to keep but it sounded pretty good.... :lol: With any tubes BTW....

 

[Mike P]

From the sound of it, that multi mic system is working well for you...Got any pics or more info? If it's a trade secret I understand....

No trade secrets involved.

When multi-miking, it's imperative that the diaphragms of both mics be perfectly aligned and in phase. If not, when you check in mono, the sound will null or disappear. It's pretty easy to do my sight but I'd recommend setting up the mics, record, then check in mono. After that, you can make any necessary adjustments.

I generally prefer to record with one mic if possible, but the bass is a tricky instrument, especially in an iso cab. Let me know if you have any questions or problems and good luck!

 

[speedemon]

I stopped chasing tone and decided to practice.

Yes, when it comes to "the tape" here is where it really lies. I love changing tubes and speakers and guitars , and getting a different feel from being in the room with it. The games my brain and ears play on me can make it more or less enjoyable to play. The sad reality is the tape throws all that out the window and just lays bare my fingers on the fretboard.

It's all in what we are "used to", like a job, families, scenery, weather...

 

[Graham Pearson]

Just wondering ... do you know anyone out there who has made a solid state module, i.e. one without tubes?

 

[Mattfig]

Just wondering ... do you know anyone out there who has made a solid state module, i.e. one without tubes?

There's been discussion but no mods to my knowledge...There was also talk about some solid state tubes mentioned....I know that sounds like an oxymoron but true....

 

[Graham Pearson]

Hey Fig:

I was just trying to introduce a note of levity into this otherwise too-contentious discussion about tubes. A little disappointed that my suggestion, tantamount to heresy, was posted 51 minutes before it stimulated any response.

Thanks Fig.

 

[Hamner1]

Hey Fig:

I was just trying to introduce a note of levity into this otherwise too-contentious discussion about tubes. A little disappointed that my suggestion, tantamount to heresy, was posted 51 minutes before it stimulated any response.

Thanks Fig.

I didn't catch that either. I was thinking the same thing Matt was. I believe Salvation was discussing a Roland Jazz Chorus module all solid state clean.

Silly Graham, Tube talk is never contentious or opinionated

 

[Mattfig]

Hey Fig:

I was just trying to introduce a note of levity into this otherwise too-contentious discussion about tubes. A little disappointed that my suggestion, tantamount to heresy, was posted 51 minutes before it stimulated any response.

Thanks Fig.

I didn't catch that either. I was thinking the same thing Matt was. I believe Salvation was discussing a Roland Jazz Chorus module all solid state clean.

Silly Graham, Tube talk is never contentious or opinionated

Yeah...+1! If I'm gonna be contentious I'll talk about modules....Opinionated is good for speakers and tubes....And smartass is good to say a solid state module is dumb. Dum-Dum-Dum-Dum-Dum.....Get a POD if you want that poop!!!!

 

[crankyrayhanky]

I stopped practicing a long time ago to commit my full attention to chasing tone