Is there a Randall MTS / Egnater exodus ocurring???

[JK40_7]

Julia, I think maybe the new Marshall jv whatever is not the way to go, Check ebay and find alot of marshalls form the 70's and 80's still rockin. Like I said in my post no amp company is perfect but I am pretty sure your not going to see a 35 year old rm 20 that anybody wants because Van Halen 34 was recorded on it. The fact of the matter is MTS is the Line 6 of tube modeling, and modeling is good, although it is a RIPOFF of someone elses work, period. What however is missing is ... what is it?, i'm not sure myself, I know it is a tradeoff for tone, dymanics and true quality that will last a lifetime. Xtc module in a RM100 or Real Bogner with Military spec components?, huge difference in price and you can easily pull out your module in your amp and replace it but there is no contest, really its money I guess, but you dont have to spend Bogner money either to get quality.. Randall amps are not the quality that is going to stand the test of time, just look around in this Egnater/Randall amp forum alone, look at the problems. For example I am a Marshall guy I guess, I really like the JCM 800 but dont play out anymore so I dont need the fire power of the 50/100 watts. Had the SL+, Brown, KH2, KH3, plexi, all the marshall modules . I just bought a Budda Superdrive 30, I can get the Blackface, deluxe, tweed, jtm, top boost, plexi ,brown(KH-2)and almost a gained up SL+,all I will have to do is add a simple boost and I will be there and then some. The trade off is my amp was made in the USA, sounds better than the modules, has a shitload more dynamics and will last forever with normal tune ups here and there, no fuc..d up loop, I can actaully buy a cheap Boss dd-3 and have a delay or a chorus or whatever, its gonna be great. I have had the budda for about 30 minutes now, thats all it took to figure this out. As far as the tube thing goes, I cant even beging to think of how many hours you play at full volume per day to go through 9 quads in a year, something is really wrong there unless you are rockin 24/7 which would be awesome. I drank the Randall kool-aid, no more, it aint worth it.

Side note. I am not ignorant enough to believe that endorsee's actually use their crap, alot do, Yngwie, Zakk, Slash, whatever.. dont matter. I dont give a s*&t what Goerge Lynchs guitar tech said ( Gerry G , sold him a couple guitars) you are not going to use a f-in Lynch Shitbox with a Brahma when you have the real plexi. ( remeber the one he MODELED the brahma after)He has that amp sitting there. Hell yes he says he uses the stuff, its in the contract, Hmmm.. lets see do I want to use my Real 92 recto to record this or pop in a grail ,are you kidding me, dream on.......wake up.. drink more Randall kool-aid... back to sleep to dream some more

Perhaps you will not see a 35 year old rm20. But if I were considering purchasing one, I would consider whether or not the initial cost warranted expecting it to last for 35years! If the amp lasted for at least 5years, I'd feel the benefits outweighed the costs, especially given the direct competition. There are a variety of sounds available relatively cheap with the MTS technology. Do these sounds compare to the originals, probably not (though in some instances I find them even better); but you'd certainly be foolish to think that one amp could perfectly emulate a variety of others (maybe in a few years time, though).

It is also worth noting that even if we were to find that most people on this forum had experienced some type of problem with their amp, this would not be evidence that the majority of amps sold were defective. Things could, of course, be far worse than the forum lets on, but they could also be much better.

In addition, in order to know whether or not quality control is much poorer with Randall than with other manufacturers, we'd need to know the concentration of defective amps produced by those other companies. Unfortunately, anecdotal evidence that such-and-such amp lasted 35 years, especially when we don't know a wealth of other relevant factors, just won't cut it.

 

[tung]

Well, i have to somewhat agree with Rockman here. I been loyal to the MTS Series for the last 3 years now. Run both RM100 and RM50, own a **** load of modules, mod and unmod. And now I'm having real issues with the amps.
Right now my RM100 is still down in the shop, it started with just a bad tube slot, but now it wouldn't even power up. If it is in fact a tranformer shitting out, it has to be covered under warranty since it's 5 years warranty on parts.
I'm really fed up with this. Never had this much problem with amps going down with any previous amps I owned.
Still have some faith in Randall though, we'll see how this pans put.

 

[JD]

Side note. I am not ignorant enough to believe that endorsee's actually use their crap, alot do, Yngwie, Zakk, Slash, whatever.. dont matter. I dont give a s*&t what Goerge Lynchs guitar tech said ( Gerry G , sold him a couple guitars) you are not going to use a f-in Lynch Shitbox with a Brahma when you have the real plexi. ( remeber the one he MODELED the brahma after)He has that amp sitting there.some more

Gerry's own words about the Smoke and Mirrors recording...

The primary amp used in these recording sessions was George?s signature series Randall amp, the Lynch Box. There were three of them used and these were the core of the basic rig. Because of its interchangeable preamp modules, the three were used via an A/B/C amp switcher, the Lynch co-designed Morley Tripler. The Randall preamp modules, one in each of the three heads, were the Grail, the Brahma and the Mr. Scary. The Grail was used primarily because of its controllable gain which was still used to a minimum as it was used for a defined crunch in the rhythm tracking. The Lynch Box head containing the Brahma module was used in tandem with George?s original 1968 Marshall plexi-era 100-watt Super Lead amp head. Used together, those two amps sounded remarkably alike in many respects and they complemented each other very well. The Lynch Box head utilizing the Mr. Scary module was only used for solos and other over-tracking material.

Two Randall Lynch Box 4x12 speaker cabinets were used either as a single cabinet or in stereo using both at the same time. They are completely stock and contain the Eminence Super V speakers also co-designed by George.

Other amps and speakers used in the Smoke & Mirror sessions included:

-1968 Marshall Super Lead
-Soldano SLO-100
-WEM Dominator
-1965 Fender Super Reverb
-Roland JC-120
-Hiwatt SE-4123 4x12 (with original 50-watt Fane Speakers)
-early 70s Marshall basket weave 4x12
-mid-70s Marshall ?Salt & Pepper? 4x12

 

[Julia]

No I probably won't see a 35 year old Randall RM100 -- for one I'll be 92 years old and probably won't care. Heck, people have freaked that I wet sanded the neck on a new Gibson. "You destroyed the collector value!" Look, by the time that becomes a collectable in 50 years I'll most likely be dead or 107 years old. And those now vintage amps varied in tone from one to the next made even on the same day with components out of the same box.

And another thing... when we say "look at the forums for the trouble". I'm sure most people just buy their amps plug them in and go to work playing. If they don't have trouble they probably don't frequent a forum that ofter, or if they've found what they like you probably won't see them on a forum except maybe advising others. People search out forums when they have a problem. You should see the Digidesign forum regarding Pro Tools. Look at the post counts. Most peoples' first post is titled "Help" or "It's not working" or "Can only record 30 seconds before DAE error". You never see a post "Just Got Pro Tools and it's beautiful" because if it works right out of the box perfectly and the person knows what they're doing they don't frequent the forum. Does this mean the product sucks? No. Testamonials are not a valid source of information.

And you're in the "honeymoon" period on the Budda.

I don't think tube amps are going to be around that long. The tube mfg equipment is already 70 years old and no one is making replacements. When the replacement parts on hand are used up then it goes to machining new parts which gets expensive, and the manufacture isn't very environmentally friendly either -- that's another reason none of them are made here in the states.

Regarding the tubes... Four of those quads arc'ed right out of the box on install. The fifth went in two days. The other three quads went in 100 days each. I don't play with the amp cranked up. I'm probably running the amps at 5 to 10 watts which through a 412 is quite loud -- crank a Marshall Class 5 through a Marshall 1960 to hear what I mean. Two of the sets that died were the new quads in both the JVM (EL34) and the Lynch Box (JJ E34L) -- 90 days on those. Another was a quad of Groove Tubes 6L6GEs that, while the tone was good, redplated in 90 days. Another pair went on my Fender amp, but those at least had lasted a year -- sovtek 5881s. So like I said. I've got a quad of SED 6550s in there now that are going on 9 months old -- which is almost a record. I've got 3 spare 6550s, a quad of 5881s, and a quad of EL34s as backups.

What I'm doing this year? I'm selling my 6505+ and grabbing a GSP1101/Control 2 package. I'm leaning this way, but may go with the Digi Eleven Rack -- I want to hear one first and compare. Why? I don't need two tube amps. It's for the studio, anyway. With the C48 firmware update on the GSP1101 the models are a lot better than the original firmware so a direct comparison with a stock GSP vs ER might not be fair. I can run either through the RM100 power section, or I can run it direct into my interface for recording. I can go stereo with it. I can run it through a dedicated power amp. I can run it out my studio monitors late at night and still have it sound good. And the Line 6 POD X3 Pro is also in the running because the tones are pretty darn good and the modeler has a good feel to it -- some of the models are very touch sensitive. But the GSP models tube sag which is what has made it a favorite. And it's one rack space.

Yes it's a "ripoff" of other people's work. But also realize there really hasn't been that much of a change in tube amp circuitry since the 1960s. The only thing that's been added is more gain stages and channel switching which engage more gain stages. Jim Marshall ripped off Leo Fender's amp design. Then everyone followed. Mike Soldano, Reinhold Bogner ripped off Jim Marshall. Harlan Peavey ripped off Mike Soldano and Randall Smith. The list goes on. But everyone ripped off Williamson (inventor of the push-pull circuit). Everyone built their success off the backs of someone who came before. The ripoff argument is irrelevant.

Why would someone play a Randall Brahma over a 1968 Marshall amp? Because those old Marshalls are over 40 years old and are not as reliable as they used to be. You bring them out every so often to blow the carbon out, but for day to day stuff you play something else. Not many of us have the skills or the money to maintain a 40 year old amplifier. And those vintage amps I'm sure sound different today than they did when they were new. Capacitors start breaking down. Replace with new ones? the tone changes even if they're the same rating -- let alone if you can find the same paper caps used. It's a crap shoot.

Personally I don't have the physical room or the money to have 7 different "original" amps on which the modules I have are based. I'm interested in just getting a good rhythm, and lead sounds. On the Lynch Box I've found them: an sweet clean (KH1), crunch (JTM), and lead (SL+). The SL+ with my SG on the neck pickup is probably my favorite solo tone so far.

Some of the issues people are having may have to do with the tin based solder (RoHS) on the boards and elsewhere. This stuff forms whiskers that can short out and cause a lot of problems. The stuff is fairly new and from what I'm seeing is that problems on the Randalls seem to be on the older amps. Recently board manufacturers have changed soldering methods and they've been working on solder formulae so hopefully this improves reliabiility in the future, because we're going to be stuck with it.

I may go fully over to a modeler/power amp for the rig in a few years anyway. It's an age thing. I may swap out this Randall Lynch Box for a nice fully functional keyboard. That with the modeler will cover everything. Moving heavy stuff around is not fun. This whole thing is supposed to be enjoyable and focused on making music, having fun, and if you can make a living at it that's gravy.

I just love grabbing my acoustic and heading over to play bluegrass with friends or do a little coffeehouse thing.

 

[tung]

I may go fully over to a modeler/power amp for the rig in a few years anyway. It's an age thing. I may swap out this Randall Lynch Box for a nice fully functional keyboard. That with the modeler will cover everything. Moving heavy stuff around is not fun. This whole thing is supposed to be enjoyable and focused on making music, having fun, and if you can make a living at it that's gravy.

.

one word: Axe Fx. That's the way to go, great tones, no more reliability issues.
That's the route I'm taking if i don't get my RM100 issues resolve soon.

 

[JD]

I've gone the modelling way...more then once. So far the RM100 has me the most statisfied I've ever been.

 

[GtrGeorge!]

My 2 cents:
I ve been BLESSED to own pretty much anything I coveted. And now, after learning all that I use the MTS gear. Why? Because it sounds better,period..oh and its practical. Oh and also, the price point was reasonable..and further it is modifiable (If I so choose).

Am I drinking Kool-aid? No..not for a second. If you know my posts I have been more than willing to criticize some of the designs, the availability etc etc
But hey, I do know what Randall is up against. A tough economy, a group of monopolies in distibution,marketing and manufacturing...so some aspects WILL BE SUB-OPTIMAL. It cant be helped.
But overall...I dare you to find a better amp. I work in a music store..and I try everything that comes in. The Marshall JVM? It popped like crazy when I switched channels. And the clean sound wasnt all that great. The new Tourmaster? Cool..but you cant buy a new module for it 10 years down the road.
And lastly, I play alot of gigs. I have had my Rm4 faceplant from 5 feet up. The ground shook..but it still works. And I am still using the same tubes now 6 years after purchase.
My experience isnt perfect...but overall..the MTS is still the best tool set available for the descriminating guitarist.
GtrGeorge

 

[StratmanR2S]

Moving heavy stuff around is not fun

Thats why I have ordered a RM50LB. I need a small amp that will do it all. Solid state modelling amps don't cut it I even tried the Vox Valvetronics stuff and it didn't do it for me. MTS is all tube circuitry.


And yes I do expect a new amp to last.

 

[GtrGeorge!]

PS:Julia said
"Why would someone play a Randall Brahma over a 1968 Marshall amp? Because those old Marshalls are over 40 years old and are not as reliable as they used to be."

yeah, exactly...I was playing gigs with a pair of original 1965 Fender Deluxe Reverbs. Great sound, imho. But over time I was having to replace the power caps..and then other stuff was falling out of range..and the parts no longer exist.
So eventually,..the end was near for them.
To boot: Everywhere I went I was beeing hounded...people wanting to buyt hem off me, some people trying to steal them off me..and I had to be very protective of them. When I play a tough club in NYC an ape who worked at the door threw a cymbal and put a small gash in one of my amp's tolex. Thats when I realized..these are just not tolls anymore,...they are wonderful studio pieces and some belong in museums, maybe. But I need serious tools, ..and they fit the bill.
I really thing the new managament should revitalize the line. Just some communication here at this forum would be be encouraging.
GtrGeorge

 

[Mister Joshua]

Well i was unaware that there was a buy out when i first posted in this thread. Buy outs can be and usually are very long, painful processes where the customers get screwed over while the transaction occurs. I am hoping that the new management sees the potential of this line. I agree with JD in that modeling is not quite to the point where it can supplant tubes. I got rid of a huge amount of Line6 gear to come to Randall because the subtle nuances of tubes are (at this time) impossible to imitate in computers without a significant amount of gear. I speak mainly of the new VSTi technology. I use VSTi keyboard stuff and it is off the hook but i have not had a chance to try any VSTi guitar stuff like Guitar Rig or Amplitude so i cannot speak of their quality. I do love my MTS gear and hope that when the dust settles and Randall starts up again that they pay attention to this forum and to their customers and reinvest in this line.

Peace, Joshua

 

[JK40_7]

Well i was unaware that there was a buy out when i first posted in this thread. Buy outs can be and usually are very long, painful processes where the customers get screwed over while the transaction occurs. I am hoping that the new management sees the potential of this line. I agree with JD in that modeling is not quite to the point where it can supplant tubes. I got rid of a huge amount of Line6 gear to come to Randall because the subtle nuances of tubes are (at this time) impossible to imitate in computers without a significant amount of gear. I speak mainly of the new VSTi technology. I use VSTi keyboard stuff and it is off the hook but i have not had a chance to try any VSTi guitar stuff like Guitar Rig or Amplitude so i cannot speak of their quality. I do love my MTS gear and hope that when the dust settles and Randall starts up again that they pay attention to this forum and to their customers and reinvest in this line.

I use guitar rig as my primary practice amp. I tried to make it work for larger applications; however, it just seemed somewhat lifeless, even when running through a tube driven power amp. I guess it's hard for Guitar Rig to capture the sustain you get out of an all tube amp, and it also seems to lack a lot of the low end thump that I dig.

Don't get me wrong, Guitar Rig is great, and vastly superior to the stuff I've tried from Line 6 and Boss. But I came to the Randall MTS line to capture something lacking in Guitar Rig. So far, my RM100 has delivered.

 

[Zander]

I have a feeling that when Randall bought the licensing to the MTS line, they believed that people would buy perhaps upwards of 6 modules. Perhaps Bruce can speak to this with regards to his own expectations versus how things have actually played out.

I actually had no plans of buying more than 6 or so myself. I have 22. I don't think Randall or Bruce thought they were creating a more expensive amp. I genuinely believe they thought they were creating a cheaper one.

I think that like most people I was hit with a hard case of G.A.S. and went gonzo on preamp modules. Now that I have 22, I actually desperately want to get back down to at least 10 and that's still probably too many. I'm just waiting for the economy to get better before selling off the modules as I think they'll fetch a better price once we're back to full employment.

Now, that said, I would agree that Randall has been hesitant at best to support the MTS line. However, I also believe that this has more to do with the executives at US Music being (from our vantage point at least) overly cautious given the current economic conditions. If RM4's are unavailable and people want to buy them then yeah, Randall's dropping the ball. However, I do not hear stories of RM100's not being available.

I have every intention of keeping my RM100 long into old age.

 

[Vince]

Well... like I said.... I ordered a matching 212 cab for my RM50 as new and got a refurbed cab instead. I then ordered a JTM module which I am still waiting on over a month later. This being my first experience with Randall makes me think they suck. I will probably go back to handbuilt Marshall clones.

 

[Julia]

The biggest problem with management in bad economies is that they don't ever do enough marketing. Marketing is a priority during an economic downturn.

This said, if you're looking for an exact clone of the tone of a particular amp via a module it isn't going to happen. You'll get close, but you won't get exact. Chances are you don't have the speaker cabinet designed to go with that amp. You have ONE power amp to go through, and that's the Randall power amp in this case. It is not a Soldano power amp. It is not a Marshall power amp. Even a handbuilt clone isn't going to sound exactly like that one amp tone you've got in your head.

Realistically, I don't know how some guys do it. They must be rich. Or massively in debt.

1987 Plexi = $1800
SLO = $4500
Bogner Exstacy = $4500
Mesa Mk V = $2500

Then they have several 412s, and stuff like that. Obviously have a big house and a six figure salary.

The idea behind this series was to give access to the classic tonal palette. Not exact tonal clones. No matter what I do I still have a 412 of Greenbacks. And it's an Avatar 412, not a Mesa Boogie, or Marshall, or Orange, or Bogner, or whatever.

When I bought the Randall I waited a month for the amp. It was being built.

Vince, the JTM modules are in stock at Sweetwater. They are available. Cancel the order where you ordered it from, and get it from Sweetwater. They have pretty much the full line of stock modules. The interw3bZ is your friend.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MTSJTM/

If I were to order one from my local store it would take over a month. If I want something that's not a stock item there, I go to Sweetwater.com

 

[JKD]

Well, rockman isn't the first one to suffer from unreliable RM100s and I can totally understand his frustration if he's experiencing this in a gigging environment.

I don't have experience to comment on it, since I don't gig....I've only suffered one blown tube in 7 years (and that was in a Mesa 2ch DR!!!) with my playing at home.

Lots of other perspectives....plenty of people suffering from module GAS....can't say I understand the 'lack of support' issue....Randall has always been responsive on contact...maybe a little slow to send parts based on couple of contacts (and other people reporting same)..but if they discontinued the amp tomorrow I'd buy a few backups and expect to continue using 'em until my grave

People like Pete and Antony have done far more to advance the platform but to those expecting such miracles out of Randall R&D/production....I don't think it's a commercially realistic expectation...it appears sales haven't been that great even with the endorsements (but I could be off base...just going by feel/speed of equipment moving on eBay over many years etc.)

Steve

 

[Goldfish]

Just to bring some balance to the issue of customer support, I've gotten very quick support both times I've contacted Randall. Most recently a month ago when my RM100 encountered some trafo issues and I needed clarification on some service specs. I received a friendly, detailed reply within 30 minutes.

 

[Mailman1971]

What the heck is going on.....seems like a ton of stuff for sale right now, from both camps?

I know we're slightly insane/OCD anyway, so it could be a sell-off of surplus gear....?

It's a bear to shift anything right now, let alone primo pieces...what gives folks?

The mailman Dan always seems to say "the grass is greener...." even when it isn't ;-)

For me personally.....I just like to check out new amps. Nothing wrong with the Randall/Eggy stuff. I miss it at times and wish I held on to one of my Lynch boxes to break out at the moment. I got into selling off most of my gear for finacial reasons and whittling it down to JUST ONE.
I had alot of $$ tied up in my MTS rig. Needed to thin everything down.
Now down to one guitar and one amp. If I want something new....I promised myself I would sell one to get another.
Not like the good old days when I had 8 Custom modules.....8 guitars....LOL!
I am happier with a slimmer rig. The GAS HOUND in me when I get going on the Modules is out of control. :x
I will get something Modular again one day....
but now all my $$$ goes into bills.
Much more peacefull around the house. :wink:
Rock on all!!

Dan

 

[Vince]

I know it will never exactly emulate the amps that the modules are designed after. But I play AIC, AC/DC, Led Zeppelin, Judas Preist, Pantera... you get the picture. That's allot of ground to cover and the Randall MTS is about the only amp I think that can do all that pretty good. I used to run 2 Marshalls to cover that but man that was a wiring nightmare.

The JTM module was ordered through Beyond Eleven and I have a membership which gets a pretty good discount over just about anywhere except used. Their ordering system goes directly to Randall and everything ships from Randall directly. This appealed to me for a couple reasons... one being that I would get the latest revision of any modules I buy. And another... I assumed they would have SOME kind of stock on their own products. I am calling tomorrow to get an update.

Don't get me wrong.... I really really like the MTS stuff but it would be nice to get better support and maybe a few new modules to keep things fresh.

 

[tung]

Well, my amp is still down, but finally got a hold of a Randall service centre and the tech is actually someone who had worked on my other amps for years. so hopefully it's in capable hands and the problem will be take care of.
I did try to contact Randall, and after a huge red tape, 5 phone calls later, i finally got a hold of the right service rep. He did call me back after 30min, which is a good sign that they're still looking after their customers.

 

[84Strat]

The MTS stuff is much better than the Line 6, Behringer & Vox modelers I have bought & sold. I have tried those thru a Tech 21 Power Engine, PA Speakers & Tube amps, but they still lacked dynamics. The Axe-FX & Digitech modelers look promising, but I'm wary after past experiences.

I have not tried a stock Randall module, but the Salvation Dead Plate & Salvation 1666 I bought sound pretty good. I'm in the process of trying to buy a used module to send for the Mamba mod.

This system seems to be a good fit with my other 2 amps (Blues Jr & Splawn Comp). It gives me the ability to try other high gainers without breaking the bank.