Is there a Randall MTS / Egnater exodus ocurring???

[rhequiem]

^ Very good post, Julia. I couldn't be in more agreement

 

[speedemon]

Ohhh,

gots to disagree Julia. Don't know how much you have been around vintage amps, but it seems to be the other way around. The success of the 1000 trick pony from China, seems to be driving current amps to sound more like it. But...one cannot argue the giant strides made in this technology, esp with the computer software. Fortunately, recording has gone digital as well, blurring the line between a recorded amp and the digital software.

I am afraid the tones of yesteryear are gone for the most part.

Yes, I have now become a nostalgic cork sniffer! oh well...

 

[crankyrayhanky]

You've got your basic tones: Vox, Marshall, Fender, and Mesa. Randall threw in the 5150 with the Ultra XL, and everything else is derived from them

I don't know about this anymore. I guess you could say a Framus is a juiced up Recto, but Orange tones are a far stretch from this basic lineup; Bogner is also way more compressed and smooth. I'm sure there's a few more recent distinct flavors to add...

 

[m0jo]

You've got your basic tones: Vox, Marshall, Fender, and Mesa. Randall threw in the 5150 with the Ultra XL, and everything else is derived from them

I don't know about this anymore. I guess you could say a Framus is a juiced up Recto, but Orange tones are a far stretch from this basic lineup; Bogner is also way more compressed and smooth. I'm sure there's a few more recent distinct flavors to add...

Derived does not mean they sound the same!

Soldano SLO and Boogie Recto are very similay circuits... but you can definitly like one WAY more than the other.

Orange has a tone that is very distinct as Hanky pointed out
And there are some others that definitly deserve to be in the standard line up: Diezel, Soldano (okay Mr. Scary gets close..), Dumble, Engl and a few others
There's a market for it, otherwise there would be no modders!

What they have now is a lot of two brands: Marshall and Fender..
Call me crazy but I don't think that's a particularly diverse line-up :?

Any way, I'm fine with modded modules, because of all the extra options.
But I do think Randall could use a few more good standard modules to up the appeal of a "custom" and "personal" amplifier.

 

[Julia]

Ohhh,

gots to disagree Julia. Don't know how much you have been around vintage amps, but it seems to be the other way around. The success of the 1000 trick pony from China, seems to be driving current amps to sound more like it. But...one cannot argue the giant strides made in this technology, esp with the computer software. Fortunately, recording has gone digital as well, blurring the line between a recorded amp and the digital software.

I am afraid the tones of yesteryear are gone for the most part.

Yes, I have now become a nostalgic cork sniffer! oh well...

The 1000 trick pony is the AXE FX and that is made in Michigan. Pretty much everything else is made in China though. Components for made in USA amps are even made in China. But that's another topic and gets into the political realm that we're not supposed to discuss in the forum.

I've heard "vintage" amps. A friend of mine has a collection of them. The problem is that the amps aren't reliable anymore. They're old. It's hard to find the exact same caps and resistors that were put in them in the first place.

The massive wall of full stacks was there for a purpose back in the days of Woodstock because the PA systems of that time were not up to the task. Today they are. Today you can play an arena gig with a 112 combo.

The SLO is also designed after the Marshall JCM800. Mike used to hot rod Marshall amps before he built the SLO.

You see primarily Fender and Marshall type modules because that's what people are most familiar with. So if you want something else you go with a modder.

You go into a music store the amps you see are: Fender and Marshall, maybe a Vox AC15, and a ton of Line 6. Rarely anything else except in select locations where the peoples' disposable income can support purchases of Orange, Bogners, Mesa Road Kings, Diezels, Soldanos, Engls, Hughes & Kettners. Most people don't even know about these other amps. I heard an Orange amp once because someone traded in a Tiny Terror. The nearest vendor for Orange is about two hrs away again in an upper income area. They know Fender as the tone of blues, Marshall as the tone of RnR, and Vox as the tone of the Beatles. They also see Fender as affordable, Marshall as expensive, and Vox somewhere in between, and it's easy to find an amp tech to work on these three brands.

I almost got a Switchblade at one point, but the store was missing the footswitch and delivery on that was 6 months or longer (they switched North American distributors) -- and the footswitch is where the presets are stored. Great sounding amp.

The thing is that when you get to high gain amps, they all pretty much sound alike, or at least very very close to each other. Some people can tell the difference, but most won't. But subtle differences is what drives the business otherwise we wouldn't see like 100 different clones of the tubescreamer, yet it is only the ones made in the early 1980s that have the mojo.

 

[m0jo]

The 1000 trick pony is the AXE FX and that is made in Michigan. Pretty much everything else is made in China though. Components for made in USA amps are even made in China. But that's another topic and gets into the political realm that we're not supposed to discuss in the forum.

You do realise the Axe FX is a computer right? Make an educated guess where the computer parts come from
95% of that product comes from Asia, what's left is the casing, maybe the audio parts in there..

That's not a bad thing, but it's definitly not an "American made" product.. it's assembled in America, different thing!

 

[Anomaly]

The 1000 trick pony is the AXE FX and that is made in Michigan. Pretty much everything else is made in China though. Components for made in USA amps are even made in China. But that's another topic and gets into the political realm that we're not supposed to discuss in the forum.

You do realise the Axe FX is a computer right? Make an educated guess where the computer parts come from
95% of that product comes from Asia, what's left is the casing, maybe the audio parts in there..

That's not a bad thing, but it's definitly not an "American made" product.. it's assembled in America, different thing!

There is no such thing as "MADE in USA" 100% unless it's produce :lol:

 

[Julia]

The 1000 trick pony is the AXE FX and that is made in Michigan. Pretty much everything else is made in China though. Components for made in USA amps are even made in China. But that's another topic and gets into the political realm that we're not supposed to discuss in the forum.

You do realise the Axe FX is a computer right? Make an educated guess where the computer parts come from
95% of that product comes from Asia, what's left is the casing, maybe the audio parts in there..

That's not a bad thing, but it's definitly not an "American made" product.. it's assembled in America, different thing!

There is no such thing as "MADE in USA" 100% unless it's produce :lol:

Sorry not even that anymore. Ever check the labels on your winter fruit? You'll see Chile on it.

My THD Hot Plate says handmade in U.S.A. right up the road in Seattle. My TENS unit is made in Minnesota. My Fender amp is made in USA. As are my two Gibsons. But everything else? Hmmm..... I think the lint remover is made in USA. And we wonder why people can only afford to shop at Walmart.

 

[speedemon]

Lol,

about all that is made in USA anymore is your McDonald's hamburger (but not the containers, they got a recall on their Shrek glasses now! lol) and the little trinkets you buy at an open air market....

Yes, scarcity or non-existence of parts simply re-inforces my point.

Hopefully these boutique builders whose stuff is 75% USA made will survive...

Later!

 

[m0jo]

I have a better question: who the hell cares and why?

We in Europe don't have that nationalistic urge, I don't want everything made in the Netherlands... hell if it where my PC would be running on steam and my car would be a horse carriage.
Outsourcing is a way to get things made cheaper, which means the companies earn more money, which means your economy on the whole is helped by that.
They outsource all the crap jobs like constucting PCB's and manufactiring stuff, and you're left with the good ones: management, marketing, retail etc.

Of course there's a downside, as there is to all things.
But somehow you people see only the downside.

I guess it's a transition thing.. Made in USA is just a hype IMO.
I'd like a "Made well" label on my stuff and I don't give a flying **** where it comes from.

 

[rhequiem]

Mojo, I am American, and while I'm not an avid fanatic of "Made in the USA", I think I can totally understand the drive. I think "Made in the USA" meant "Made Really Well" at one time, and still does, to a degree. We Americans tend to be very proud people, so seeing fewer and fewer things with that coveted "Made in the USA" label stings a bit. I think this all harkens back to a time when the USA was a strong manufacturing country, making quality stuff. Now, as you say, we have become more of a service country (marketing, advertising, entertainment, etc) and it's tough for some to digest that shift in paradigms.

 

[m0jo]

Mojo, I am American, and while I'm not an avid fanatic of "Made in the USA", I think I can totally understand the drive. I think "Made in the USA" meant "Made Really Well" at one time, and still does, to a degree. We Americans tend to be very proud people, so seeing fewer and fewer things with that coveted "Made in the USA" label stings a bit. I think this all harkens back to a time when the USA was a strong manufacturing country, making quality stuff. Now, as you say, we have become more of a service country (marketing, advertising, entertainment, etc) and it's tough for some to digest that shift in paradigms.

Yes well I understand the old feeling, what I can't understand is that it's still one of the main debates in a lot of gear.

I must say I am very against conservatism (not in terms of politics, but in lifestyle).
Not that everything should be changed, but you should look at things individually, somethings should stay as is and some can benefit from change.

This also applies to outsourcing production, when done right it can give a company the power to do a lot of great things (see the Egg Tourmaster for instance, it has a duckload of features and tone for a very low price and at very high quality). And then there are also bad examples..
But a lot of people start comparing apples to cows, for instance Mexican made and USA made Fender .. if the Mexican ones were aimed at the higher end it would be an honest comparison but now it's just not..

 

[rhequiem]

I agree, Mojo. I'm not debating the point, just trying to explain my viewpoint as an American. Someone more true-blood patriotic might have more vitriol and passion for the subject and could engage you more fully on it. I understand the benefits of outsourcing, and also the pitfalls. Even greater than American's pride is their desire to save a buck. Just look at the popularity of Wal-Marts here.

 

[m0jo]

I agree, Mojo. I'm not debating the point, just trying to explain my viewpoint as an American. Someone more true-blood patriotic might have more vitriol and passion for the subject and could engage you more fully on it. I understand the benefits of outsourcing, and also the pitfalls. Even greater than American's pride is their desire to save a buck. Just look at the popularity of Wal-Marts here.

Yeah I know, just explaining my perspective.

It is interesting though how Julia says "have to shop at Walmart" and you say "want to shop at Walmart".. it's all perception I guess.

 

[OldTimer]

Every opinion takes place within some sort of context, and right now in the US, big corporations are sending their manufacturing, programming, customer service, and pretty much anything else they can overseas to Asia - all this at the same time we 10% of us are unemployed and a lot of Americans are hurting badly. That tends to make many of us wish we were actually still building more stuff here in the US.

Its all relative. I doubt the Netherlands ever was the industrial "mecca" of the world that the US once was, so its probably a little hard to relate. If we hadn't been forced to watch it all disappear over the past 10 years, we probably wouldn't take it all so personal.

Peace, love, and much music.

 

[rhequiem]

I agree, Mojo. I'm not debating the point, just trying to explain my viewpoint as an American. Someone more true-blood patriotic might have more vitriol and passion for the subject and could engage you more fully on it. I understand the benefits of outsourcing, and also the pitfalls. Even greater than American's pride is their desire to save a buck. Just look at the popularity of Wal-Marts here.

Yeah I know, just explaining my perspective.

It is interesting though how Julia says "have to shop at Walmart" and you say "want to shop at Walmart".. it's all perception I guess.

Just to clarify, I *despise* Wal-Mart. You can probably count the times I've spent my money there in the last 10 years on one-hand. I only go there when I pretty much have no other alternative, like I need something only they carry and I need it *today*. I watched a documentary on Wal-Mart titled "Wal-Mart: The High Cost of a Low Price". I didn't like shopping there before I watched that, but that film just deepened my dismay. Another interesting and humorous Wal-Mart tidbit is the website www.peopleofwalmart.com - good for a few giggles hehe

 

[m0jo]

Every opinion takes place within some sort of context, and right now in the US, big corporations are sending their manufacturing, programming, customer service, and pretty much anything else they can overseas to Asia - all this at the same time we 10% of us are unemployed and a lot of Americans are hurting badly. That tends to make many of us wish we were actually still building more stuff here in the US.

Its all relative. I doubt the Netherlands ever was the industrial "mecca" of the world that the US once was, so its probably a little hard to relate. If we hadn't been forced to watch it all disappear over the past 10 years, we probably wouldn't take it all so personal.

Peace.

Funny thing is, I/we have never seen the US as such a mecca.. I think that is part of the whole deal

Also I think your view of Dutch history is a bit skewed, we did own all the seas at one point you know :lol:

Anyway, sorry for being a bit pissy earlier, but I don't like this whole idea one bit.
This is also partly because I had a boss who was completely crazy about all the boutique Made in USA stuff like Z.Vex pedals.
Yes they are great ... and yes I cloned 2 of their pedals for 20 bucks instead of the 500 bucks they would cost me to buy.
Made in USA also comes with a disproportional slap on the pricetag...

Anyway, I think I'm going to stop discussing it now we'e going extremely off topic.
Also since it relies heavily on personal views the discussion will go on forever and ever and ever and ever etc.

 

[Julia]

I'm pretty convinced that if I had the knowledge I could clone most basic dirt pedals for about $25 to $40 -- probably closer to $40 if you include a custom painted cast aluminum box. And if they sounded good enough, sprinkle magic fairy dust on them, slap a coat of thick black epoxy over the board to cover up how simple it is and put a $500 price tag on it. Someone would buy it, rave about it, and I'd get deluged with orders. But I'd have to build them in a shack somewhere out in the woods for cred. However if I put a $60 price tag on it, it would get ignored no matter how good it sounded.

But I don't have the knowledge. And seriously if I'm going to breathing solder and paint fumes and shortening my life you are going to pay the extra.

And now we've got a couple new modules, so I guess Randall isn't abandoning us. It's just that we haven't seen anyone from Randall look at the board in a while. Occasionally Bruce does, I'll give him that.

 

[OldTimer]

Every opinion takes place within some sort of context, and right now in the US, big corporations are sending their manufacturing, programming, customer service, and pretty much anything else they can overseas to Asia - all this at the same time we 10% of us are unemployed and a lot of Americans are hurting badly. That tends to make many of us wish we were actually still building more stuff here in the US.

Its all relative. I doubt the Netherlands ever was the industrial "mecca" of the world that the US once was, so its probably a little hard to relate. If we hadn't been forced to watch it all disappear over the past 10 years, we probably wouldn't take it all so personal.

Peace.

Funny thing is, I/we have never seen the US as such a mecca.. I think that is part of the whole deal

Also I think your view of Dutch history is a bit skewed, we did own all the seas at one point you know :lol:

Anyway, sorry for being a bit pissy earlier, but I don't like this whole idea one bit.
This is also partly because I had a boss who was completely crazy about all the boutique Made in USA stuff like Z.Vex pedals.
Yes they are great ... and yes I cloned 2 of their pedals for 20 bucks instead of the 500 bucks they would cost me to buy.
Made in USA also comes with a disproportional slap on the pricetag...

Anyway, I think I'm going to stop discussing it now we'e going extremely off topic.
Also since it relies heavily on personal views the discussion will go on forever and ever and ever and ever etc.

Wow, its hard to believe anyone could NOT acknowledge the US was THE leader of the industrialized world historically (owning the seas isn't industrialization my friend) - after all we created and produced the telephone, the steam engine, the automobile, the television, the computer/PC, the guitar amplifier, the electric guitar,.....oh well. There is a lot of USA hatin' going on these days in Europe - and I guess I understand it to a certain extent. But FYI, most of us over here still see mother Europe as pretty a darned culturally cool place. No hatin' on this end at all.

But I do agree, that since things have been off-shored here, the word "boutique" gets thrown around to mean "made in USA" and to mean "high quality", and I'm not so overly patriotic as to believe that just because its has those three words its better than anything else. Not at all what I meant to say.

You are correct. We've talked too much off topic. Peace.

 

[m0jo]

Every opinion takes place within some sort of context, and right now in the US, big corporations are sending their manufacturing, programming, customer service, and pretty much anything else they can overseas to Asia - all this at the same time we 10% of us are unemployed and a lot of Americans are hurting badly. That tends to make many of us wish we were actually still building more stuff here in the US.

Its all relative. I doubt the Netherlands ever was the industrial "mecca" of the world that the US once was, so its probably a little hard to relate. If we hadn't been forced to watch it all disappear over the past 10 years, we probably wouldn't take it all so personal.

Peace.

Funny thing is, I/we have never seen the US as such a mecca.. I think that is part of the whole deal

Also I think your view of Dutch history is a bit skewed, we did own all the seas at one point you know :lol:

Anyway, sorry for being a bit pissy earlier, but I don't like this whole idea one bit.
This is also partly because I had a boss who was completely crazy about all the boutique Made in USA stuff like Z.Vex pedals.
Yes they are great ... and yes I cloned 2 of their pedals for 20 bucks instead of the 500 bucks they would cost me to buy.
Made in USA also comes with a disproportional slap on the pricetag...

Anyway, I think I'm going to stop discussing it now we'e going extremely off topic.
Also since it relies heavily on personal views the discussion will go on forever and ever and ever and ever etc.

Wow, its hard to believe anyone could NOT acknowledge the US was THE leader of the industrialized world historically (owning the seas isn't industrialization my friend) - after all we created and produced the telephone, the steam engine, the automobile, the television, the computer/PC, the guitar amplifier, the electric guitar,.....oh well. There is a lot of USA hatin' going on these days in Europe - and I guess I understand it to a certain extent. But FYI, most of us over here still see mother Europe as pretty a darned culturally cool place. No hatin' on this end at all.

But I do agree, that since things have been off-shored here, the word "boutique" gets thrown around to mean "made in USA" and to mean "high quality", and I'm not so overly patriotic as to believe that just because its has those three words its better than anything else. Not at all what I meant to say.

You are correct. We've talked too much off topic. Peace.

First off I'm not hating, I used to when I didn't understand the full picture, I have for a while now and there's no hate anymore.

Let's see now:
Telephone: yes
Steam engine: England my friend.
Automobile: Germany (Benz Patent Motorwagen)
Television: simultaniously in England/Scotland and America, but the American system was better I'll grant you that. The Scottish inventor was there first though with the primitive technique.
Computer: yes, although there was a primitive valve version of it in England
Guitar amplifier: the first purpose built yes
Electric guitar:yes

See there it is, America looks very self centered when you look at it with an ousider's view.
Yes Americans improved on all of those and set the standards (Model T for example), but invent all of those? No.

For me America is curturally very interesting as well It's the other side of the coin: new and old.
For people living in the new, the old is interesting, and vice versa.

I think the difference is here we all have relatively small countries, instead of one enormously huge one.
This makes us a bit less patriotic I think.

And yes, shipbuilding is an industry though not the industry you mean, just having a laugh